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Cooling System - Pressure/Temperature Data

5.9K views 14 replies 5 participants last post by  T-Cut  
#1 ·
As most people know, the engine temperature gauge sits happily on 'normal' until the coolant reaches 115C. From that point on, things happen very quickly indeed. Should an overheat occur, the needle rockets up almost instantaneously into the red and the warning light pops on. In a K16, that's not good and the engine must be stopped immediately to avoid serious problems. An overheat is often accompanied by ejection of coolant from the header tank cap, which is set to relieve the over-pressurised system. So far, I've seen no data as to what temperatures are involved when these things happen.

One of these can be determined by looking at the properties of ethylene glycol(EG) solution (the basic ingredient in OAT antifreeze). These are well documented and vapour pressure curves can tell us how hot the system is when the cap blows. The standard pressure cap is rated at '140'. That's the relief pressure in kiloPascals. It's about 21psi in old money. The physics is simple enough, the valve opens when the coolant vapour pressure reaches 140 kPa. Look at this diagram:

Image


Using the standard 50% OAT as coolant mix, you find that the coolant is barely above 'normal' when the cap starts to open. It's about 118-120C taking my red lines as near enough.

This explains why the events happen so quickly once the overheat starts. It also illustrates how useless the gauge is for anticipating a potentially serious situation. Of course this graph doesn't tell you where the red line is on the gauge, but I reckon 120C is about right.

Another point to bear in mind is that some engines don't have a 50% EG mix in them. This is especially so where the owner has to keep topping up a leaky system and tends to use tap water. As the EG content drops, the pressure cap will open at progressively lower temperatures. This means coolant is ever more easily ejected, leading to an even more rapid spiral of events. Note where the red line crosses the 0% EG curve (about 115C).

TC
 
#2 ·
I'm getting a bit worried, even though I'm not completely sure what you've said there. We had an overheat in the summer in Southport on one of the hottest days (the old fan had comnpletely died unbeknownst to me). We had to travel for about 5 long agonising minutes before we could safely switch off. As you say, the pressure relief cap had done it's job and we lost some coolant.
We left The Raptor as we went for a walk so she cooled down and the weather was much cooler when we set off for home, having topped up the coolant with bottled water. She behaved impeccably all the way home, I checked the oil cap for mayonnaise and watched the exhaust like a hawk for excessive white smoke but nothing to report.
I am thinking of draining the system and refilling with a proper 50/50 OAT mix now the weather has turned colder. Is there anything you'd recommend other than that? A more accurate temperature gauge perhaps? It's a very interesting (if slightly worrying!) post!
Zoonie :)
 
#3 ·
Another point to bear in mind is that some engines don't have a 50% EG mix in them. This is especially so where the owner has to keep topping up a leaky system and tends to use tap water. As the EG content drops, the pressure cap will open at progressively lower temperatures. This means coolant is ever more easily ejected, leading to an even more rapid spiral of events. Note where the red line crosses the 0% EG curve (about 115C).

TC
I run a cap with 200 stamped at the back, which should give another 5 degrees or so.
As for the higher temperature (lower pressure) of ethylene glycol, this is true. You will be able to run this mixture at higher temperatures. However the specific heat capacity of water is greater than that of ethylene glycol, meaning that even if you run at lower temperatures, you can carry more heat with water.

These differences will tend to offset each other. The only good reasons for a mixture is the anti freeze and anti corrosion properties you achieve. Water is the better coolant for anything else.
 
#4 ·
However the specific heat capacity of water is greater than that of ethylene glycol, meaning that even if you run at lower temperatures, you can carry more heat with water.
Yes, standard coolant has about 90% of the heat capacity of water alone, but obviously cooling systems are designed to acommodate this. Indeed you could argue the diesel is over-designed in that sense. Parts standardisation I suppose. Here's the detail. I've selected the running teperature as 100C, but it's similar throughout.

Image


North American/Canadian truckers run their fleets on neat Propylene Glycol which is closer to the heat capacity of water.

TC
 
#5 ·
Two interesting notes, about this diagramme, if you are mentally disturbed like us!!
1. Neat antifreeze reduces your cooling capacity quite a bit, so not a good idea, although I have met people who think it must be better.
2. The freezing point drops to a point with increasing solution, only to increase again as the solution gets more concentrated.

I have not checked the last point, but can this be right? Is neat ethylene glycol freezing more readily than say a 50/50 water mixture?
 
#9 ·
1. Neat antifreeze reduces your cooling capacity quite a bit, so not a good idea, although I have met people who think it must be better.
It would be OK in the diesel I suspect, but the main issue with neat glcols is the viscosity. It's somewhat harder to pump and the flow rate/rpm is somewhat lower than the aqueous solutions.

2. The freezing point drops to a point with increasing solution, only to increase again as the solution gets more concentrated.- - -
I have not checked the last point, but can this be right? Is neat ethylene glycol freezing more readily than say a 50/50 water mixture?
Yes it's correct. Water is a very non-ideal liquid in terms of physics and has strange effects on things it's mixed with. If it weren't for this strangeness it would be a gas (like hydrogen sulphide H2S, hydrogen oxide H2O should be gaseous).

TC
 
#6 ·
And to the point, Fahrenheit, Btu, mmHg, PSI, come on, who won the war??.




The French:rolleyes:, - in this case, so, maybe, use metricated units!!


Fahrenheit my my!!

Almost as good as the 1 7/8" spanner required to take off the pulley nut on my P4!!!

Come on, TC, I know that you are old school, but this ancient.

:rotflmao:
 
#11 ·
And to the point, Fahrenheit, Btu, mmHg, PSI, come on, who won the war?? - - - - - Come on, TC, I know that you are old school, but this ancient.
It was the first diagram I found on the Net. I prefer Specific Heat in calories/degree C/gram, but there you go. The units aren't as important as the conclusions. And the pressure cap is calibrated in kiloPascals which has to be French! Oh yes, it was Blaise Pascal. He faffed around with the Great Englishman, Newton's work and came up with a radiator cap!

TC
 
#7 ·
And, darn, I passed my 200th post without noticing!!

Like watching the mileometer , 99999.1...99999.2...99999.3 you got the picture? and then a nice girl walks out in the rain with an umbrella!
100000.5 .... 100000.6

Darn!
 
#8 ·
And, darn, I passed my 200th post without noticing!!

Like watching the mileometer , 99999.1...99999.2...99999.3 you got the picture? and then a nice girl walks out in the rain with an umbrella!
100000.5 .... 100000.6

Darn!
Are you saying that T.C. had the same effect on you as a nice girl ??????
Oh !! Oh !!

Pmsl. Colvert.


:rolleyes::rotflmao::rotflmao::sofa::stir:
 
#13 ·
As most people know, the engine temperature gauge sits happily on 'normal' until the coolant reaches 115C.
Are you sure about that? Reason I ask is with the scangauge, I can tell at what temp the fan cuts in. On the 260 it was 98deg (or 99, I can't recall, eitherway it was around 100) and on the TF its around 103 (although the sensor is now dodgy so could be wrong, but when reliable it said 103).

115 sounds very high, does anyone with a ZT have a scangauge and can confirm what temp the fan cuts in or needles starts to move from "normal" on the temp gauge?
 
#14 ·
I can certainly confirm that my car runs up and down on the temperature scale from 60 to just under 110 degrees on the main pipe running into the radiator, where I measure the temperature on my added temperature gauge, during which the gauge sit happily in the middle on the standard temp. gauge.
That can be veryfied by using the on-board display as well, although I have never performed the function.