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What's in a name?

9.3K views 109 replies 27 participants last post by  Ex-MG  
#1 ·
A discussion came up in another thread about the Roewe name, and it got me to thinking about all the Companies that own the various brand names to the old BL car companies, Rover Austin MG Triumph etc.

Why do companies such as BMW keep these trade marks like Triumph, they aren't using it? Wasn't there a bit of a fuss when Phoenix bought MGR over the Triumph name, why do they want it so much? Ten years has passed and not a sausage from BMW on Triumph.

Maybe they just don't like the idea of someone building Triumph Spitfires :badaboom:
 
#15 ·
I still think the only person who had any idea what B*W were buying was Herr Hasselkuss, and that even Bernd the Toast didn't really have much idea.

I think they only saw Land-Rover and had no idea about international co-operation. In fact, AFAIK no German B*W factory is outside Bavaria - and in the Munich newspapers, Cologne, Berlin and Hamburg appear in "World News".

Having realised they hadn't thought through properly what they thought was the purchase of a big 4x4 maker, what could they do? Arguably B*W management was not up to the job. Even Wolfgang Reitzle, who was arguably no great success at Rover, seems to have made big changes at Linde.

What would have happened if B*W had never bought Rover?
 
#23 ·
I fear another "old chestnut" is rearing its head(?) on this thread.

If the Government were to bail out every failed (failed for whatever reason) carmaker, you'd arguably end up with something like British Leyland. But not for long. And what about Honda, Nissan and Toyota? or the punter?

You might as well say that money you spend, and is gone, in the year is "investment" e.g. "I'll just invest in another pint".

Ah - that was what the last Government used to say.

So if MGExe would have liked his tax money to have gone into MG Rover, I'll pass on that one. :lol:

There's no right or wrong answer to that "what if?" I started. :doh:

The key thing is, this is 2010, SAIC and MG Motor now own our favourite brand, and a brand new MG is to be launched at the end of the year...
 
#24 ·
I fear another "old chestnut" is rearing its head(?) on this thread.

If the Government were to bail out every failed (failed for whatever reason) carmaker, you'd arguably end up with something like British Leyland. But not for long. And what about Honda, Nissan and Toyota? or the punter?

You might as well say that money you spend, and is gone, in the year is "investment" e.g. "I'll just invest in another pint".

Ah - that was what the last Government used to say.

There's no right or wrong answer to that "what if?" I started. :doh:

The key thing is, this is 2010, SAIC and MG Motor now own our favourite brand, and a brand new MG is to be launched at the end of the year...
The fact is, MGR were our last and only home grown, mass market car maker. Just on that basis alone, it should have been rescued. There was a lot of highly talented and skilled people at MGR. It could have been something to be proud of. It was insane to let it go.

Not that I'm not enthusiastic about the re-launch, mind. To be frank, I'm starting to get quite excited about it. I just can't deny that I'm more than a little gutted about how it's all come about, and every now and then I'm going to have a 'what if?' rant about it!
 
#26 ·
Obviously there were problems in the past, as they rightly point out there. But it wasn't too late to save it in 2005 and it should have been saved, end of. Look what a nice injection did for Renault. And GM, for that matter. Come to think of it, Fiat as well.

Stupid, stupid UK.

Shame on us all.
 
#27 ·
I think BMW will revive Triumph and maybe Riley, they are just picking their moment.

MINI's problem is that it has no scale. They are trying to gain some with the monster MINI (the Clubman). BMW's logic is that MINI owners need something to graduate to as they spawn kids. BMW don't seem to think (and I agree with this) that MINI owners will migrate to a BMW 1 series. Presumably because the MINI is quirky and fun. Whereas the 1 series is very clinical in it's feel.

So logically MINI needed a bigger brother. MINI can't extend to larger cars. The Clubman is a big enough problem. So the answer is Triumph. Combine the best of the Triumph brand with the quirky approach BMW took to MINI et voila you have a brand for MINI owners to move to. Build out a new Dolomite, 2000, Stag and TR6 and you quickly have a decent looking range with global appeal.

So I don't think Triumph will remain dormant, it's more a case of waiting for BMW to realise that the will have to turn to Triumph to give MINI a big car outlet. In all honest Triumph could be the brand that makes MINI.

As for Riley then I can see it being used as a coach building brand. Mini Riley Elf anyone?
 
#28 ·
I agree that we will eventually see a BMW-developed Triumph (hopefully made in the UK, although isn't the MINI triangle working at full capacity as it is?) However, I'm not so sure about Riley being used as a coach builder.

To be honest, I could never see the reason behind BMW keeping Riley. Triumph has a lot of heritage and is fondly remembered in many markets of the world...Riley not so much AFAIK.
 
#29 ·
Ten years ago (yes, it really is ten years ago :yikes:), both Triumph and Riley were still in recent enough memory for them to have been used to compete for the same market sector as BMW, hence (I suspect) the principal reason why BMW kept ownership of them.

I still can't see any real reason why they would re-launch either of them - even for MINI owners to move on to (the fact is that a lot of owners are attracted to the MINI because of its association with BMW, and will move up to a 1er or 3er when the need arises/finances allow).

although isn't the MINI triangle working at full capacity as it is?
Pretty much - the new MINI Clubman is being built in Austria by Magna-Steyr.
 
#30 ·
The Triumph name is an intriguing case its been in use for some time on the Motorbike stage. Triumph Motorcycles have had unpredicted and unbridled success. The law in Britain being what it is could give Triumph Motorcycles the power to stop Triumph cars being a usable name in the UK on the grounds of sullying a brand name. I can't remmber the exact terminology but I think I'm right in saying that a UK PLC can't be threatened by a similar (or exact) sounding competitor.

Ironically a British owned company has to be broken up and sold to foreign investors if it is deemed to have the monopoly in its market place!! I'm all for competition but not if it means funneling money out of the economy unneccesarily.
 
#33 ·
I think you're right about that. I've pondered that scenario since learning the bavarian Outfit 'own' the Triumph name ..

I loved my Triumph motor cycles... including my "Thunderbird"... wish I had one or more of them now... not because of the fact that they have increased enormously in value ( a long time friend still has one I sold to him in the 1960s ), but they were so enjoyable to ride.... for me, moreso than the more sophisticated Nipponese bikes I bought later.

What's in a name ... Quite a lot actually. Like the magical .... Thunderbird..

I remember reading a long time ago, that when FOMOCO of N. America wanted to name one of their cars "Thunderbird", they had to obtain permission from Triumph Motor Cycles up at Meriden... I took one of my machines up there in 1963 to have some work done at the factory. After leaving it there and walking away to get a bite to eat, I saw my machine going up the road like a dose of salts ( no speed limits in those days ) ridden by a factory tester.. followed by an E-Type Jaguar driven equally fast .. :) ... Great stuff.
..
 
#37 ·
Deja vu...... me thinks this discussion has been had several times......

Triumph wont come back, its been gone too long and there isnt sufficient gap between the MINI and BMW brands to warrant it. Im certain that BMW kept it purely to prevent MGR ever developing a Triumph badged rival to their own products, or perhaps they felt that Triumph's German roots warranted keeping it.

Whatever the reason its dead and buried now and its once proud image is forgotten by the general public, only the enthusiasts have time for it now. To be honest i think thats for the best, a Triumph made by BMW would be a travesty, they dont have the ability or skill to understand what makes a Triumph a Triumph. Please leave the marque i love alone.
 
#46 ·
Some say and some conveniently forget Jacko .... no names no pack drill .... ;)... The terminal damage was done was prior to BMW's asset stripping and running in 2000


Jackonico said:
And BMW retained Cowley
...

There was no MG-Rover prior to 2000 when the Bavarian outfit asset stripped and ran!!

We as a nation will be selling off the family silver at knock down prices in the next 'privatisation' to service these national debts ...... you'll see.

============================================

Pssssstt!! John, wake up ... that's already a been there, done that scenario back in the 1980s...

Checked your energy bills lately ? Never mind the quality of service, feel the width of these profits... anyone would think there's a boom on. Maybe there is for some ..
.
 
#49 ·
StreetRover,

You're wrong.

FACT: Rover was not 'breaking even' when BMW took over, it was losing £360 m per annum, and those losses were mounting. Rover was NOT in "relative health at time of purchase".

FACT: BMW may have focused its investment on Cowley and LandRover, but it also invested in Longbridge.

You say: "It's a matter of opinion that Rover couldn't operate as a mass market producer. It could in 1993, and I have no doubts MG will in the Europe in 2013. That it may have looked as though it couldn't in 1999 says more about BMW's ownership and Alchemy's aims than it does about Rover. Anyway, MGR continued as a mass producer for 5 years longer and would have continued longer still had it found a partner in time."

It is indeed a matter of opinion. And it became clear that Rover was unable to operate as a mass market producer, otherwise it would still be with us. Whether or not the MG6 will allow it to do so in 2013 remains to be seen.

You seem keen to defend the Phoenix Four. You say that:

The enquiry (sic) did not find the P4 evasive or untruthful. In fact they couldn't find anything wrong.
By contrast the P4 look like saints.
Others don't share your view.

The Guardian said:

"The Phoenix Four, the controversial former owners of collapsed car company MG Rover, devised a scheme to pay themselves a windfall totalling £75m from a dowry provided by BMW, according to a government report published this morning.

When BMW sold MG Rover in 2000 to the local businessmen for a token £10, the Germans agreed to hand over an extra £75m to relieve it of warranty commitments.

The report says a number of schemes were considered which would have given the four personal options over that £75m.

The 850-page report said that ultimately only £10m of this was handed to the four in the form of loan notes shortly after the takeover was completed. This was done so that the "issue would not become public for some time" the inspectors said.

Because the Phoenix Four had expected BMW to pay the full £75m up front in loan notes, they sought to pay themselves bonuses of £65m over five years to make up for the "shortfall". This target was later downgraded to £50m, the report claimed.

When MG Rover collapsed in April 2005 with the loss of 6,500 jobs, the Phoenix Four and former MG Rover chief executive Kevin Howe had paid themselves a total of £42m.

Witch hunt and whitewash

A statement from the Phoenix Four dismissed the report, which has cost taxpayers over £16m and taken over four years to complete, as "witch hunt against them and a whitewash for the government".

"It drips with the hallmarks of this government – spin, smear and point-blank refusal to take any responsibility for their own actions.

"We criticised the government for failing to help MG Rover. As we have seen elsewhere, there is a price to be paid for criticising this government and for us the price is this report."

The report detailed how the Phoenix Four transferred the assets of MG Rover into a separate company, most of them at below market value.

On 7 April, the day before MG Rover went into administration, one of the Phoenix Four, Peter Beale, charged an invoice of £417,201 to their holding company from legal firm Eversheds to MG Rover, the inspectors claimed. "It seems to us that Mr Beale probably authorised the payment with a view to benefiting PVH [the holding company] - so that PVH would not have to pay."

The report also claimed that the day after the government appointed inspectors to investigate the collapse of MG Rover, Beale bought "Evidence Eliminator" software to wipe his computer's hard disk. Beale told the inspectors he only ran the programme to delete personal documents.

The Phoenix Four now face being banned as company directors.

The business secretary, Lord Mandelson, said proceedings would begin against the four businessmen to formally ban them.

The report also said MPs investigating the collapse of the carmaker were given "inaccurate and misleading" information by one of the Phoenix Four.

It added that there had been evidence that government officials had given questionable briefings to the media.

MG Rover was Britain's last volume carmaker."


The Times was just as critical:

"A damning report into the collapse of MG Rover claimed yesterday that one of its former directors attempted to destroy evidence after the company went bust in 2005 and another was having a personal relationship with a consultant who was paid £1.6 million by the business.

The 850-page report, begun four years ago at a cost of £16 million to the taxpayer, also claims that MPs investigating the demise of the company were given “inaccurate and misleading information” by Peter Beale, one of the directors dubbed the “Phoenix Four”. Inspectors said that Mr Beale bought computer software to eliminate evidence the day after the Government announced the inquiry.

They also found that Qu Li, a female consultant appointed by Phoenix to explore potential business collaborations, was having a personal relationship with Nick Stephenson, another director. Dr Qu Li and companies associated with her received more than £1.6 million in 15 months.

The inspectors write that “we consider that Mr Beale gave untruthful evidence during his interviews” when he claimed that “he had not deleted from his laptop any documents relating to the companies under investigation”. The report says Mr Beale installed software called Evidence Eliminator on his computer the day after the SFO inquiry was announced so that he could delete material before it could be assessed by the inspectors.

It is understood that the SFO was disappointed that there was insufficient evidence to pursue a criminal prosecution against the four directors — John Towers, Mr Beale, John Edwards and Nick Stephenson — who bought the company for £10 from BMW in 2000. The SFO also believes that government inspectors let Mr Beale off the hook when they took at face value his insistence that he had not deleted any files from his laptop.

Despite a substantial financial sweetener from BMW, the group went bust within five years, leaving 6,300 workers unemployed and creditors owed £1.3 billion. In the process, the four directors remunerated themselves generously. The report found that they paid themselves about £9 million each between 2000 and April 2005 and stood to make a further £3.2 million each from share schemes and dividends. Lord Mandelson said yesterday that he was calling for the Business and Enterprise Select Committee to set up an inquiry into the finding that Mr Beale misled the committee.

Peter Luff, the chairman of the committee, said that the issue would be raised when it next met in ten days. He said: “We have a longstanding interest in Rover. We will be meeting to discuss how best to take forward our concerns. It is unthinkable that we wouldn’t take the matter further in some way.” Julie Kirkbride, who sits on the committee, said that she would urge the cross-party group to call the four men back to face questioning.

The report found that the four directors paid themselves a salary of £250,000 as soon as they bought the company and within seven months awarded each other a £500,000 bonus. Six months later, in June 2001, they topped up their basic pay with another £500,000 bonus each.

According to the report, Mr Stephenson said that he saw his bonus as “part of the reward for having done an extremely unusual and extremely challenging deal in raising a lot of money”. However, by January 2002, their finance director informed them that cash reserves were dangerously low. He warned that should car sales fall short of targets, “the directors would need to give careful consideration of the solvency of the company”.

The four also awarded each other bonuses for a joint venture with a Chinese firm that was never signed.

The four, who have always denied wrongdoing, issued a joint statement. It said: “The report is entirely as we expected — a witch-hunt against us and a whitewash for the Government. It drips with the hallmarks of this Government — spin, smear and point blank refusal to take any responsibility for their own actions.

“We criticised the Government for failing to help MG Rover. As we have seen elsewhere, there is a price to be paid for criticising this Government and for us the price is this report.”

Lord Mandelson, who has started work on proceedings to have the Phoenix Four banned from being company directors, said that they had “brass neck nerve” to describe the report as a witch-hunt and urged them now to “do the decent thing” and formally disqualify themselves from holding any future directorships."


So really jack you know jack-you-know-what about the situation, and unlike you I haven't once mentioned which country the various parties come from.
The point is that others do bang on and on about "only in the UK" and do kick BMW because they happen to be German. I was answering their points.

And unlike you, I did so without resorting to conspiracy theories about how Rover were stabbed in the back by BMW, without stooping to abuse and without accusing anyone of knowing "Jack s***" about the matter.
 
#64 ·
FACT: BMW may have focused its investment on Cowley and LandRover, but it also invested in Longbridge.

Not much.

It is indeed a matter of opinion. And it became clear that Rover was unable to operate as a mass market producer, otherwise it would still be with us.

Rover was a mass-market producer with increasing sales in 1993, therefore likely to remain so, but after BMW was an incomplete mass-market producer with falling sales.

You seem keen to defend the Phoenix Four. You say that:
Others don't share your view.

The Guardian said:


I was referring to the inquiry, not the opinion of 2 newspapers.

As per your highlights:

the Phoenix Four transferred the assets of MG Rover into a separate company, most of them at below market value.

So what?

Beale bought "Evidence Eliminator" software to wipe his computer's hard disk.

Beale told the inspectors he only ran the programme to delete personal documents. See below.

The Phoenix Four now face being banned as company directors.

No they don't. The person calling for it (as per the following sentence in the article) is no longer in power.

MPs investigating the collapse of the carmaker were given "inaccurate and misleading" information

Again, see below for a more credible account.

The Times was just as critical

The inspectors write that “we consider that Mr Beale gave untruthful evidence during his interviews”

Relating to 2 of your highlights above, you missed out the rest of the paragraph. I guess it depends on whether or not he was actually asked if he had wiped anything on the computer, or whether he had wiped documents relating to the investigation. It doesn't mean he wiped anything of relevance.

the SFO was disappointed that there was insufficient evidence to pursue a criminal prosecution against the four directors

Why should they be disappointed if there is insufficient evidence? Is it a political thing? Is all they have to go on the guess that relevant stuff was deleted when they have no proof?

The report found that they paid themselves about £9 million each between 2000 and April 2005

A lot of money, though not particularly for people at the top of car companies (like BMW, who some people think should be aloud to keep their higher remunerations and the P4 not get paid for the damage done pre: 2000).

and stood to make a further £3.2 million each from share schemes and dividends.

Only if said shares were bought by others and dividends paid out handsomely, which would only have happened if the company was still going and in a healthy state.

The four also awarded each other bonuses for a joint venture with a Chinese firm that was never signed.

You'll have to come up with more details before it has any negative meaning.

And unlike you, I did so without resorting to conspiracy theories about how Rover were stabbed in the back by BMW

I have laid out the actions BMW took. No one has denied these to have happened, nor doubted the claim they definitely did happen. That's not conspiracy that's simple fact. There is no evidence to suggest BMW were forced into their actions and my opinion is that said actions were very bad for Rover.

I won't bother with your post containing an inaccurate fringe internet article and a politically-motivated article.
 
#52 ·
StreetRover,

You're wrong.

FACT: Rover was not 'breaking even' when BMW took over, it was losing £360 m per annum, and those losses were mounting. Rover was NOT in "relative health at time of purchase".
No you're wrong.

Rover we're braking even. The £360 m is essentially the increase in development costs that BMWs policies caused. I.e. the Rover Group practice of sharing platforms was a process that worked financially, the BMW model of creating unique platforms didn't. On top of that BMW were doing some dodgy accountancy which made things look worse than they were. (Rover having to buy parts from BMW for more than if they bought them direct from the suppliers for example).
 
#55 ·
Rover we're braking even. The £360 m is essentially the increase in development costs that BMWs policies caused. I.e. the Rover Group practice of sharing platforms was a process that worked financially, the BMW model of creating unique platforms didn't. On top of that BMW were doing some dodgy accountancy which made things look worse than they were. (Rover having to buy parts from BMW for more than if they bought them direct from the suppliers for example).
No, they weren't. Nor were they 'breaking even'. They were making increasing losses, and had not put in place a product range that could ever stem those losses.

And in point of fact, Rover were relatively poor at using common platforms by comparison with other major manufacturers - though BMW were worse!

Your dodgy accountancy story is urban legend. Unless you can substantiate it, of course.

You might like to read the Cambridge-MIT Institute's Centre for Competitiveness and Innovation report, ‘Who Killed MG Rover?’

http://www-innovation.jbs.cam.ac.uk/publications/downloads/rover_report.pdf

Some snippets.

Shortly before the (BMW) deal was closed, strenuous efforts were made to convince Honda to increase its stake from 20% and take over Rover, but Honda refused to do this.
Now why might Honda have been so reluctant?

BMW invested heavily in Rover, in particular the development of the Rover 75
Reasonably successful model, et could not compensate for the poorly selling 200 and 400 range….
(as an aside, Marketing Magazine said of the 75: “Luckily for all concerned, the 75 is not another product of the unremarkable range that has contributed to Rover’s decline. It is a quality car and provides the first real evidence of what Rover can do now it is free from using Honda platforms.”)

In it’s latter years Rover certainly did lack the scale to compete in the volume sector of the global car market
The loss of economies of scale was not a problem that began when BMW disposed of Rover, but in fact has been a consistent trend since 1970…….. the root cause for this evolution, persistent market failure……..
Even in 1968, when BLMC was the World’s 4th largest car company, it was

“unable to attain the combination of sales volumes and prices necessary to generate the cash essential for model renewal and factory re-equipment.
“By the mid 1960s, BMC could carry on doing what it was already doing but it had no long term future.”
They identified a series of problems rooted way back in time that 'did for' MG Rover. These included:

A “persistent failure to align product portfolio to market needs.”

There was only the most muddled and ineffective integration of BLMC’s component companies, with no co-operation and no co-ordination between the constituent companies. This in turn resulted in a chaotic product portfolio.

There was inadequate market research, leading to cars that were not quite what the market wanted/needed, and that were often wrongly priced.

Poor decision making (eg developing a new engine for the niche Stag).

Lack of a proper European distribution network and over reliance on the UK market, and inadequate efforts to develop cars that would sell on their actual merits, rather than relying on customer loyalty and inertia.

Over-manning, poor labour discipline, poor quality control, poor cost control, poor design, development and marketing.

Poor customer satisfaction despite relatively good reliability.

Their take on what went wrong with BMW?

Not lack of investment, certainly.

They blamed a lack of UK Government support and aid.

BMW over-estimated Rover’s product development capabilities (which had been largely Hondas) and underestimated the investment required simply to put Rover on a sustainable footing (eg the company was already broken beyond BMW’s capacity to repair it).

BMW underestimated the weakness of the Rover brand in the market.

Rover’s product range was focused on segments of the market that were declining – with no Mini, SuperMini, MPV or SUV.

Two of Rover’s three core models (25 and 45) were based on the Civic 1 and Civic 2 (first generation Civic) and were 11 years old, and despite facelifts they were past their prime.

Registrations of all models were tumbling from 1994 – apart from the one bright spot that was the Rover 75, though the R25 enjoyed a very modest revival (little more than flattening off) in 1999-2001 following the death of the 100 series.

They place great import on the decision not to develop the R30.

“From this point, Rover could offer little other than average quality production capacity to make someone else’s models. In a world where there is massive overcapacity, this was never going to be an attractive proposition to a suitor.”
And on Alchemy?

The Alchemy bid, which would have meant downsizing the company to a small scale niche sports car maker under the MG brand would nonetheless have been a much more sustainable option.
I also happened across this:

Rover cars: The problem is selling them

In 1994 Rover sold 362,876 cars worldwide. That was the year Rover was bought by BMW. In the next three years, the number sold remained fairly steady. In 1997 364,350 Rover cars were sold. But since then, sales have plummeted, by 18% to 299,839 in 1998 and by another 32% to 203,755 in 1999.

In crude volume terms, Rover sales are now running at not much more than 50% of their 1994 level, which is why several months’ sales are parked, unsold, on disused airfields.

When BMW bought Rover in 1994, its share of the UK car market was about 12%, in 1999 it was less than 5%, an all-time low. Even British car buyers have deserted Rover – and the vast bulk of Rover sales are in the UK. Unlike the French who still buy mostly French built cars, British car buyers have little loyalty to home built products.

These appalling sales figures, and the resulting financial losses, have forced BMW’s decision to divest itself of Rover. But they have been almost entirely absent from public discussion since the decision was finally announced on 17th March. They may have been cited in some news item on Rover in the past six weeks but I haven’t come across it. (I got them from BMW’s 1999 Annual Report, which is available on the BMW’s web site, www.bmwgroup.com).

The bulk of Rover sales are Series 200 and Series 400 middle range models built at Longbridge. They are the problem. The sales of Series 75 executive model, the first Rover model totally designed and engineered by BMW and built at Cowley in Oxford, is selling well but occupying as it does a niche market it can never compensate for the failure of the mass market Series 200 and 400.

How can Phoenix succeed?
Great hopes are being placed on the Phoenix consortium, led by John Towers, a former managing director of Rover, because the story is that it plans to continue volume car production at Longbridge. A figure of 200,000 units a year has been mentioned (which is small by today’s standards for an independent carmaker in that segment of the car market). But, making Rover cars is not the problem. Selling them is the problem, and turning a profit while doing so. The question is: how can the Phoenix consortium succeed where BMW, with all its technical knowledge and financial strength, has failed?

Since several months’ sales of Series 200 and 400 are parked unsold on disused airfields, it is obvious that the current level of production far outstrips sales, perhaps by as much as a third in the past year. So, if the Phoenix consortium does take over Rover, the first thing it will have to do is cut production of Series 200 and 400 models at Longbridge. This means that large numbers of workers will have to be laid off, either temporarily or permanently, or put on very short time. It is inconceivable that the present level of employment can be maintained in the short term at Longbridge or in the firms which supply Rover at Longbridge.

It can be taken for granted that, at the moment, Rover sales are at rock bottom given the uncertainty surrounding its future. Who wants to buy a car, which might not be maintainable because its manufacturer may be going out of business, particularly when there are so many excellent cars available from other manufacturers?

It may not be possible to revive the sales of Series 200 and 400 models at all. But if it is, a necessary condition is that the car buying public be convinced that Rover will still be in business in 5 to 10 years. And even then it will take cost cutting on a grand scale, to levels way below the cost of production, to shift them. If the Phoenix consortium does take over Rover, then in the short term substantial losses are inevitable.

What about the long term?
But what about the long term, assuming it can survive the short term? BMW intended to replace the Series 200 and 400 models in 3 years time with a new BMW designed and engineered range, to be built with £150m of state aid at Longbridge. The target was to produce 350,000 units of these annually plus 150,000 of the new Mini to be introduced this year and also to be built at Longbridge.

These plans have been overtaken by events. Sales have plummeted, in part because of the high value of sterling against the Euro, which means that UK built cars with a high UK-made content like Rovers are at a competitive disadvantage both at home and in the Euro zone, compared with cars built within the Euro zone. BMW’s 1999 Annual Report contains a graph, which shows a high degree of correlation between falling Rover sales and rising sterling value. But I suspect that is not the whole story. The Rover brand was weak when BMW bought it in 1994 and they haven’t managed to strengthen it against its competitors in the interim by the introduction of new models.

But the rising value of sterling has had a dramatically negative impact on the BMW balance sheet, simply because losses and investment in Rover operations in the UK cost the BMW group more Deutschmarks. Expected losses and planned investment in Rover operations in the UK which were manageable with the pound at DM2.80 have become next to impossible to bear with the pound at DM3.20. According to BMW’s 1999 Annual Report, the rise in sterling in 1999 cost BMW an extra DM1 billion, that is, around £300m in 1999. (The pound is now at a 15-year high against the Deutschmark at DM3.36 compared with DM2.78 when it crashed out of the ERM in 1992, because currency traders believed it to be overvalued).

If the Phoenix consortium does take over Rover, then it will have to have sufficient reserves to cover the substantial losses, which are inevitable until new models have been developed, and to cover the development costs of the new models. It is a tall order. The question remains: how can the Phoenix consortium succeed where BMW, with all its technical knowledge and financial strength, has failed?

Alchemy plans
The details of any arrangement between BMW and the Phoenix consortium remain to be worked out. The original plan was for venture capitalists Alchemy Partners to take over the Longbridge plant and the Rover brand, while BMW retained the Cowley plant, where the Rover 75 would continue to be made by BMW for Alchemy. Also, the manufacture of the new Mini would be moved from Longbridge to Cowley and marketed under the BMW brand. This at least seemed to offer job security to the 3,000 or so Cowley workers. But, Alchemy intended to cease manufacture of Series 200 and 400 Rovers at Longbridge and sack more than half the 9,000 workforce, which would cause many more thousands of redundancies in firms which supply Rover at Longbridge. (The total number of jobs involved in this is estimated at 24,000).

With the remaining workforce at Longbridge, Alchemy said it was going to build sports cars and sports saloons under the MG brand, with a production target of between 50,000 and 100,000 units. In recent weeks Alchemy have been portrayed as the villains in the affair – second only to BMW itself, which has a head start because it’s German – because it intended to cease volume production at Longbridge and sack half the workforce. There has therefore been general rejoicing that the Alchemy deal has collapsed and, at the time of writing, negotiations between BMW and the Phoenix consortium have commenced.

But the Alchemy plan, or some variant of it, may turn out to be the only viable game in town. The Rover cars built at Longbridge are difficult to sell, and after the recent unprecedented uncertainty, may prove next to impossible to sell. There may be sentimental attachment in Britain to the Longbridge car plant, but it doesn’t extend to buying the cars produced there. In those circumstances, to cease building them, and to build something else which might be more saleable is not an unreasonable plan. The alternative is to support massive losses on the existing models until new models arrive, and to pay for the development of the new models, in the hope that in perhaps 5 years time you will be able to recoup some of the losses. It’s a tall order and Phoenix needs to have very deep pockets to undertake it.

Land Rover
One part of the Rover Group, Land Rover, has prospered since it was bought by BMW in 1994. Land Rover sold 166,101 units in 1999, unbelievably nearly as many as Rover cars, compared with 94,472 units in 1994. Whatever happens to the Rover Group in general, it looks as if Land Rover is going to be sold to Ford, ostensibly because of the success of BMW’s own off road vehicle, the X5. This is the story in the BMW 1999 Annual Report, but the Land Rover sale is probably motivated by the need to raise cash to set off against the appalling losses which are going to be incurred in getting rid of the rest of the Rover Group.

Rover has a plant at Swindon, employing about 3,000 people, which makes body panels for the whole Rover group including Land Rover. Its future is also in doubt (a) because of the inevitable decline in Rover car production, and (b) because Ford may choose to source body panels for Land Rover from its own plants.

BMW’S misjudgement
BMW made a serious misjudgement in 1994 when it bought the Rover Group. Why it decided to buy an ailing British carmaker, which wasn’t even a major player in its home market, is a bit of a mystery. It appears to have been driven by the belief that, unless it entered the mass car market, it would be taken over by one of the major carmakers. This doesn’t make much sense since the Quandt family owns 48% of BMW, and is therefore effectively in a position to decide whether or not BMW remains independent. Having said that, it is no coincidence that the architect of the deal no longer works for BMW.

At the time BMW was operating very successfully at the high end of the car market, selling nearly 600,000 units a year. The BMW marque has continued to prosper since with 755,000 units sold in 1999. Meanwhile, the Rover Group, apart from Land Rover, has become a millstone round its neck.

It is a sorry tail both for BMW and for Rover cars, which would probably have done better if it had been bought by Honda, with which it worked in partnership in the 1980s with reasonable success.


Labour & Trade Union Review
May 2000
 
#57 ·
BAe managed to massage some figures together to show one year of profit at Rover Group because they were desperate to off load it.

Unfortunately, the way they managed to get this done was by spending about £3.50 on development.

It is pretty easy to show all sorts of short term profit at all sorts of car companies if you remove the development budget.
 
#59 ·
1) It's not my essay, I report only what others have written

2) A lethal combination of years of managerial incompetence, underinvestment, over-manning, poor labour discipline, poor quality control, poor cost control, poor design, inadequate products, development and marketing did the fatal damage, P4 then finished them off.

MG John,

It's much easier just to blame the beastly boche, and the unpatriotic souls who "only in the UK" failed to support the company and it's super duper products. Easier, but wrong.
 
#60 ·
1) It's not my essay, I report only what others have written

2) A lethal combination of years of managerial incompetence, underinvestment, over-manning, poor labour discipline, poor quality control, poor cost control, poor design, inadequate products, development and marketing did the fatal damage, P4 then finished them off.

MG John,

It's much easier just to blame the beastly boche, and the unpatriotic souls who "only in the UK" failed to support the company and it's super duper products. Easier, but wrong.
It was a joke, I would agree with you in some of those comments but poor design? They were well designed cars in my view as a mechanic, also for e.g the Rover 25 was fiesta size but it had more room in the rear and in the boot. Poor quality control? I find with the exception of the TATA'cityrover'Indica, the streetwise, MK2 25/ZR plastics and the metro, they were well built, yes some bit may come off but not all cars had a problem.

Inadequate products? They made good cars, the MG range was fantastic and in terms of driving they were top class, yes the Streetwise was a poor car in my view and had an ironic name, the TATA'cityrover'Indica was what killed rover off for good as it was so bad.

Marketing? The marketing was very good in my opinion and I remember there was always MG Rover adverts on the TV and they were good adverts. BMW didn't fund Rover that much, if they did then the head gasket problem would of been fixed and they would of had a proper large engine range not just a bigger K-series.

Look what this guy said, it was a comment on an article in the telegraph and he deserves a medal.

"No, BMW wrecked Rover, BMW were a struggling company who made the same car in three different sizes just as the world moved on from 4 door saloons.

Speculation was rife as to who will win the race to buy struggling BMW first. Buying Rover killed BMW takeover speculation stone dead, it also gave BMW the most recognisable FWD marque in the world (Mini) ditto for 4WD, Land Rover - Land Rover technology was plundered for X-series Beemers, as soon as they were production ready Land Rover was sold,

Buying Rover gave BMW instant access to the fastest growing sectors in the market - small FWD cars and SUVs, it moved Rover parts production to BMW owned plants in Europe, it sold Rover inventions such as electric power steering to Bosch (now fitted to 90% of new cars), it sold Land Rover to Ford for 3.8 billion dollars (a huge profit they only paid about £100m for the whole company.) It sold off most of the Rover owned dealerships making a huge profit on the land - leaving only the private franchises to carry the MG/Rover flag. BMW knew exactly what they were doing all along, alarm bells in my head rang when the Mini production plant was commissioned away from any current Rover production and a truly cheap and nasty Brazilian built Chrysler engine was specified instead of the far more fuel efficient, powerful and lighter Rover unit, BMW knew exactly what they were doing all along.

After totally asset-striping Rover, BMW handed the carcass over to a bunch of chancers - but it wasn't the phoenix four that did the damage - BMW had already done that - you could quite rightly argue that Rover saved BMW, not the other way round"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/c...-heritage.html

I have always said this for years and so has my uncle who as I have said in the past worked very high up at longbridge and everything he said is the same as that comment. Phoenix 4 was what finished Rover off for good.

Do I get an A* as well? :rofl:
 
#63 ·
Where was the investment for 200/400 replacements then? where was the proper metro replacemant, where was the investmant to solve the head gasket problem then? They only wanted Rover for their tech and the MINI brand. FACT! My uncle knew this as soon as BMW took over Rover as he was on the chassis developmet for the MINI and he knew what went on behind closed doors, that is why he retired early as he knew Rover had no future when the phoenix 4 took over from them.