I wouldnt be surprised if they are all true, but I am not convinced any of them were ever real considerations.

I suspect many of them were made to fill the time of the engineers and stylists who probably knew that there was no real chance of any tangible, launchable car on the horizon, why not play around with what you have for a bit of fun.

Although, to be fair to them,. they kept up the work on the G- Series and from the info on Keith's site, sounds like they did a cracking job, I cannot wai to try this engine in whatever car it eventually ends up in.

 

Aye, there's a lot of difference betweeen engineering toys and production cars!

Real prototypes were thin on the ground. There were mules for RDX60, but just using existing cars. Play things (i'm sure there's a proper name for them' were more plentiful, i.e. ZR Turbos, 4x4 ZTTs etc..

 

There was a desire to reduce the amount of prototype vehicles within MGR. The idea was to move towards digital engineering or virtual engineering. We were gradually getting new equipment to do do this kind of work and at one stage we went though a massive vehicle reduction scheme to get the ball rolling.

The biggest fleet we had was the OBD emissions fleet doing Customer Duty Cycles to get the miles on the clock to make sure that the emissoins systems were durable etc.

Most of the vehicles that we had on site were done in such a way that an "outsider" would not notice anything different going on. We were always repected for our ability to hide our vhicles.

You'd never be able to spot an RDX60 simulator unless you were very, very observant nay of anorak status but there were there. You may have even parked next to one and not noticed!

The only other fleet of "proto-types" and I use the word in it's loosest sense were the X12/13 vehicles (V8's).

We did have things kicking about but there weren't many. The last ever proto-type I drove was simply wonderful, a huge progression over the vehicle it was going to succeed, but that's probably been thrown away now as it looked a bit ruff and there were only a few of us that had driven it. All I'll say about that one is small and 2 seats as that's all I think I should say on that one.

 

The biggest fleet we had was the OBD emissions fleet doing Customer Duty Cycles to get the miles on the clock to make sure that the emissoins systems were durable etc.

As I recall, one of the pressures MGR struggled with was the tightening of efficiency/emissions standards; suggesting MGR was struggling with competition from the likes of VW and Mitsubishi. I'd imagine there was a lot of pressure on MGR to reduce engine and coolant weights to remain competitive. Any angry thoughts to vent on this?

 

Rincewind, out of interest what would be the purpose of the RDX60 "simulator" vehicles? As I understand it a "simulator" is an existing car with parts of a new model grafted onto it. For the Rover 75 I believe this included at least one Rover 800 Coupe with an entire R75 chassis and electrical system hidden underneath. How much serious and useful testing can be done with such cars before you really need to switch to more representative prototypes? I suppose I should also ask, what were RDX60 "simulators" based on? We have heard reports of a Rover 45 with RDX60 parts underneath, but it struck me that surely a Rover 75 would be a more logical starting point since RDX60 (allegedly) shared that car's chassis?

 

Rincewind, out of interest what would be the purpose of the RDX60 "simulator" vehicles? As I understand it a "simulator" is an existing car with parts of a new model grafted onto it. For the Rover 75 I believe this included at least one Rover 800 Coupe with an entire R75 chassis and electrical system hidden underneath. How much serious and useful testing can be done with such cars before you really need to switch to more representative prototypes? I suppose I should also ask, what were RDX60 "simulators" based on? We have heard reports of a Rover 45 with RDX60 parts underneath, but it struck me that surely a Rover 75 would be a more logical starting point since RDX60 (allegedly) shared that car's chassis?

All of the simulators were sat on the 75 platform as the understructure was to form the basis of RDX60 (reneamed RDX130 at the end). Simulators can give you valuable help before bodies are tooled up etc. All of our simulators for RDX60 were running chassis set ups and also it was running engine configurations, cooling, electrical architecture etc. Once you've got the important running gear, electrical stuff sorted, the job then becomes easier when the new body comes along, it's then all down to tweaking and sorting the chassis out for example to suit the new body shell and so on.

To give you an idea, to tool the body up for the new car, and I mean just the metal, not the colouring in or decorating bits, the actual building of the body shell was going to cost in the region of £320 million. You can't afford to wait for these to be built before the chassis work takes place etc.

I don't recall a 45 being used as a sim for RDX60. It was all 75 based.

Either way, simulators are most important bits of equipment. I see simulators every day up here at MIRA. The new Bugatti Veryon started life as a Lambo Diablo to sort parts of the chassis, engine and transmission out before the body arrived.

 

What about the rumours of all sorts of stuff lurking under a Montego Countryman... any substance to these?

Regards

John

 

What about the rumours of all sorts of stuff lurking under a Montego Countryman... any substance to these?

Regards

John

There's a red Montego estate up here at MIRA and I'm sure that it used to be the old "Fuels" vehicle that originally lived at Gaydon. However, not sure about anything lurking under one yonks ago.

What sort of "stuff"?

 

Something to do with RD/X60 or a 25 replacement IIRC. I'll try and dig out the post later on.

I did speak with someone who worked inside the Kremlin at the time, but they dismissed it as pure fantasy... but then they probably would anyway :err:

John

 

The new Bugatti Veryon started life as a Lambo Diablo to sort parts of the chassis, engine and transmission out before the body arrived.

That wouldn't be the Diablo that was delivered for transmission testing would it? I was told it had the back end removed off for the work. Well, ventually!

 

That wouldn't be the Diablo that was delivered for transmission testing would it? I was told it had the back end removed off for the work. Well, ventually!

Correct, that may be the one it was a black one I think, or was it silver? It was deffo up here though doing transmission work.

 

Correct, that may be the one it was a black one I think, or was it silver? It was deffo up here though doing transmission work.

I read on another forum a post by someone who had been at MIRA and seen a black Diablo that had been cutabout for the development of the Bugatti Veyron. This was fairly recently and the poster was claiming it was still there gathering dust. I would presume since it was in this country that it was used by Ricardo to develop the Bugatti's gearbox.

On the subject of simulators, I seem to remember reading that when the Metro was being developed in the late 1970s they shipped in a fleet of brand new Allegros and hacked them about to begin simulator work. Then of course there were the Maestro vans used for Freelander development and the Metro vans used in MGF development. Would these count as simulators Rincewind, or are they something more since they appeared to be simply the shells of existing cars stretched over a new model to disguise it from spy photographers?

 

I read on another forum a post by someone who had been at MIRA and seen a black Diablo that had been cutabout for the development of the Bugatti Veyron. This was fairly recently and the poster was claiming it was still there gathering dust. I would presume since it was in this country that it was used by Ricardo to develop the Bugatti's gearbox.

On the subject of simulators, I seem to remember reading that when the Metro was being developed in the late 1970s they shipped in a fleet of brand new Allegros and hacked them about to begin simulator work. Then of course there were the Maestro vans used for Freelander development and the Metro vans used in MGF development. Would these count as simulators Rincewind, or are they something more since they appeared to be simply the shells of existing cars stretched over a new model to disguise it from spy photographers?

Yeah, I think that you could class them as simulators as well as hiding what is really going on underneath. They would be used to do what you and I have described and also to keep their real identity hidden from those pesky journalists that seem to have field days predicting what is about to hit the streets and so on.

As for the Diablo, yes, it was more than likely Ricardo doing the transmission work. That is something they are very proud of and when I was down there just before Christmas doing some work with them I was chatting about the car to some of the engineers. They seem to enthuse about the car in the same manner as I enthused about the MGR products.

it has just confirmed my belief that the best people to do marketing and PR work are engineers because they/me/we understand what goes on in making a vehicle and not just worried about how it is "coloured in and decorated". Oh the fun an arguments I had at MGR about stuff like that.

 

friend of mine who worked at rover told me they were planning a 7 seater based on the 45 chassis???!!!!! But designed by a far eastern car company???? China????

 

All of the simulators were sat on the 75 platform as the understructure was to form the basis of RDX60 (reneamed RDX130 at the end). Simulators can give you valuable help before bodies are tooled up etc. All of our simulators for RDX60 were running chassis set ups and also it was running engine configurations, cooling, electrical architecture etc.

What still needed to be done to get RDX60 to market?

 

it has just confirmed my belief that the best people to do marketing and PR work are engineers because they/me/we understand what goes on in making a vehicle and not just worried about how it is "coloured in and decorated". Oh the fun an arguments I had at MGR about stuff like that.

I can't argue with that!

 

To give you an idea, to tool the body up for the new car, and I mean just the metal, not the colouring in or decorating bits, the actual building of the body shell was going to cost in the region of £320 million. You can't afford to wait for these to be built before the chassis work takes place etc.

---

Yeah, I think that you could class them as simulators as well as hiding what is really going on underneath. They would be used to do what you and I have described and also to keep their real identity hidden from those pesky journalists that seem to have field days predicting what is about to hit the streets and so on.

The flexibility of using different component/engineering including electrical systems and combinations, and the apparent understanding of how these can be translated to different platforms and bodies is interesting in itself. I wonder what sort of development could have been put into any compromise concept such as 25 or 45-replacement. Something that might just involve platfrom resize and some re-engineering and a new body - maybe even one involving limited structural change to an existing body that could suit a slightly rersized platfrom. Something that could be developed quickly and relatively cheap to productionise.

Is that £320m for a full running prototype and it's tooling up, or is it for final production model tooling?

As for the Diablo, yes, it was more than likely Ricardo doing the transmission work. That is something they are very proud of and when I was down there just before Christmas doing some work with them I was chatting about the car to some of the engineers. They seem to enthuse about the car in the same manner as I enthused about the MGR products.

They've been busy recently with SAIC, I wonder if they're a bit more enthusiastic about Rovers than Lambo's now?

it has just confirmed my belief that the best people to do marketing and PR work are engineers because they/me/we understand what goes on in making a vehicle and not just worried about how it is "coloured in and decorated". Oh the fun an arguments I had at MGR about stuff like that.

I would def agree about the designers and engineers being invovled in marketing, and some product development decisions like driveability etc, but really you need the right advertising and PR people to get the message across, and good managers/customer clinics/market researchers etc to get the right products developed in the first place!

If someone from Nanjing is reading this I hope they sign up the right people for their big UK R&D centre, bring back some of the old engineers (even BMW era ones) and dig out some old stuff. Designers have been known to have copies lying around of work they did in the past. :shh:

 

£320 for just the final body shell and that's all.

You can turn anything into a simulator so your thoughts are not that far wide of the mark to be honest, as time progressed things may have happened with the replacement of the 25 etc.

I agree with the comment on the right people for the advertising and PR roles, however, there are times when not even they can get it right as has been demonstrated in the past.

If you met any of us at the NEC motorshow on the taster test drive area, you will have found the best PR and Advertising work in the industry from us engineers and comments were made to that effect. But yes I agree with what you say,if you have a good company "selling" you, there should never be a problem should there!

Buckets needed to be done to get the NMC to market. If TWR had still been helping it may have arrived, but it might not have been the right car to bring to market, the subsequent design was though. I reckon in the deal had gone through with SAIC, we may have seen a vehicle by the end of 05 early 06. late I know, but it would have arrived and set new class levels of everything!

 

I can't argue with that!

I can, but I also know exactly where he's coming from - some marketing people are a disgrace to the profession.

 

They've been busy recently with SAIC, I wonder if they're a bit more enthusiastic about Rovers than Lambo's now?

They are, but the facility is completely isolated from within the rest of Ricardo. Whatever they're up to (and I have some info but very little) they really want to keep it a secret......

 

They are, but the facility is completely isolated from within the rest of Ricardo. Whatever they're up to (and I have some info but very little) they really want to keep it a secret......

oooooo, now there's a surprise! Harumph!

 

oooooo, now there's a surprise! Harumph!

I know, you couldn't call them the most open bunch of people could you?

 

I know, you couldn't call them the most open bunch of people could you?

I've seen a more open Scotsmans wallet than that lot (and I'm allowed to say that as my family heralds from Scotland as well as Italy!).

 

Rince - do you know what happened or where the 600/800 lines went, after they were taken out of Cowley? Was all the machinery kept together or sold off?

 

I've seen a more open Scotsmans wallet than that lot (and I'm allowed to say that as my family heralds from Scotland as well as Italy!).

I can beat that. I'm part Welsh. Welsh make the Scots look generous!

 

Rince - do you know what happened or where the 600/800 lines went, after they were taken out of Cowley? Was all the machinery kept together or sold off?

Sorry, absolutely no idea, well before my time at MGR. I was at Toyota then trying my best to not be too Japanese in my outlook, but failing miserably as they were right and I wish others would take notice of how they were, brilliant I think just about sums them up.

They may have been sold off, not sure. I'm sure someone knows somewhere on here.