[DarkOne]

Interloper,​

Utter utter nonsense! The old R-R plant at Crewe has NOT been turned into more than a CKD operation!​

Please stop spouting this misinformation. VW have invested over five hundred million pounds into the Crewe plant since 1998, that’s why the place has been redeveloped. It employs over 3,900 people, does a 500m pound investment and 3,900 staff really sound like a CKD operation? Do you REALLY need to spend 500m on plant and employ 3,900 people to do nothing other than assemble 8,500 cars a year from CKD? Of course not, the idea is absurd!​

The Mulliners coachbuilding operation still exists in the Crewe plant; it employs coppersmiths, coachbuilders, cabinetmakers and electronics experts amongst others.​

Continental GT’s and Arnages are still hand built at Crewe, engines are built there, EVERY single Bentley is built at Crewe now that the major investment in the factory is complete.​

As for Rolls-Royce, now that IS a largely a CKD operation, but what on earth else do you expect? BMW started from scratch, all they owned was the name, nothing else as that was all with VW at Crewe. So, BMW built a brand new factory at Goodwood, from the ground up, designed by a British architect, to assemble the new Rolls-Royce Phantom. They still employ all the old traditional crafts that R-R at Crewe did, recruited from yacht building companies and other local craftsmen such as luxury furniture makers, musical instrument and shoe makers and still hand build the cars, the only robots in the entire plant are in the paint shop.​

The body shells come from BMW Dingolfing, but why on earth not? BMW employ 20,000 people there and make body shells for almost the entire BMW range, that has to make sense if you are building less than 1000 cars a year, no one would set up a body shop just to produce that quantity, it would be economic nonsense. Same goes for the engines, they come from Munich. ​

BMW are hardly going to up this lot and ship it to Germany are they as some paranoic suggested, they’ve only just built it!​

So, both Rolls-Royce and Bentley are still built in the UK, in much larger, and growing, numbers than the old Rolls-Royce ever managed. R-R is largely CKD for body shell and engine/transmisssion with all the old traditional crafts still in place.​

Bentley is designed, MANUFACTURED and built in the UK.​

These companies are investing in the UK, employing more staff and taking on apprentices and exporting most of their production.​

Thanks, finally somebody making some sense.

 

[Chas70]

I would certainly rather have jobs created by foreign firms in the UK, than firms creating jobs overseas.

We've got to look onwards and upwards, and every new job created in the UK is a bonus as far as I'm concerned. Especially ones that are going to be teaching youngsters a craft, rather than more DIY and Supermarket jobs.

I agree with you here.

Let's hope that at some stage in the not too distant future these companies become British owned and run.

I interpreted Tony Blair's recent comments about foods as a very positive step and once that is established it makes it easier to extend the argument to manufacturing and energy.

 

[Chas70]

Interloper,​

Utter utter nonsense! The old R-R plant at Crewe has NOT been turned into more than a CKD operation!
Please stop spouting this misinformation. VW have invested over five hundred million pounds into the Crewe plant since 1998, that’s why the place has been redeveloped. It employs over 3,900 people, does a 500m pound investment and 3,900 staff really sound like a CKD operation? Do you REALLY need to spend 500m on plant and employ 3,900 people to do nothing other than assemble 8,500 cars a year from CKD? Of course not, the idea is absurd!​

If Interloper is so wrong Canley, why are you so furious that you are screaming and ranting at him?

The Mulliners coachbuilding operation still exists in the Crewe plant; it employs coppersmiths, coachbuilders, cabinetmakers and electronics experts amongst others.

Continental GT’s and Arnages are still hand built at Crewe, engines are built there, EVERY single Bentley is built at Crewe now that the major investment in the factory is complete.

I don't know the factory personally, neither I suspect do you. Interloper lives not too far from there so he may well know something we do not.

They still employ all the old traditional crafts that R-R at Crewe did, recruited from yacht building companies and other local craftsmen such as luxury furniture makers, musical instrument and shoe makers

Luxury furniture makers? Shoemakers? Musical instrument makers? In Chichester? You're miles away from the actuality here. None of these trades have roots in the Chichester area. It's all farming and sailing, with associations with high-tech electronics around Portsmouth/Fareham.


[/quote] shells come from BMW Dingolfing, but why on earth not? [/quote]

Because they should be manufactured in Britain. That's why not.

W range, that has to make sense if you are building less than 1000 cars a year, no one would set up a body shop just to produce that quantity,

Errr.. Pressed Steel had a contract for ages to supply R-R bodies...

BMW are hardly going to up this lot and ship it to Germany are they

Wait for an economic downturn, when BMW sales slump and RR follow suit... then retrenchment will take place...

as some paranoic suggested, they’ve only just built it!

Err... Ford builta plant in Poland which they shut after four years, so why shouldn't BMW? It's easier and cheaper to fire workers here than in Germany.

with all the old traditional crafts still in place.

Yes, most of them are in Germany. Toolmaking anyone?

These companies are investing in the UK, employing more staff and taking on apprentices and exporting most of their production.

​

Right, right... and how many thousands of apprentices did each of the UK motor manufacturers take on each year 30 years ago? Sorry but 12 just doesn't cut the mustard.

 

[Chas70]

It's been so for ~20 years, and a great exporter since the late 19th century.
Exports are not the problem, low internal consumption is =>

Our problem is the opposite.

low job creation is.

Well our problem is that too many of the jobs we are creating are low skill, low pay and low level. Many of the people doing these jobs are qualified in various trades but they cannot find work in their trade since companies using those trades have closed, or sold up and the jobs and order books have been exported.

The curent political situation is a laugh and/or cry one .

You're very lucky in that you don't have someone like Murdoch meddling in your system. He is poison.

 

[martin193252]

Thanks for the info Ian i have just sent them an email with my CV attached, i doubt for one minute I'd be lucky enough to get it but its alwats worth a try, with my qualifications i had no idea it would be so hard to find an apprenticeship

Thanks

Martin

 

[Chas70]

Thanks, finally somebody making some sense.

Unfortunately there appear to be too many fundamental flaws to make it sensible, from a British perspective at least.

I can see where you're coming from. Jobs and wealth have been created in Germany as a result of these and other business decisions affecting British businesses. That's good for Germany.

I'm not criticising BMW, VW or anyone else in Germany over this. Far from it. My criticism is directed at those Brits who have allowed, encouraged it to happen, and who have made lots of money out of exporting our jobs and wealth. Canley says he's a M and A specialist; presumably he has made lots of money out of it too. That may explain his furious posts on here, of which his response to Interloper is the most recent example.

 

[ZRsteve]

A quick look at www.bentleymotors.co.uk confirms Canleys description of the Bentley operations in Crewe.

His description of the RR operation seems right too, although www.rolls-roycemotorcars.com is less informative than the Bentley site.

 

[Interloper]

Canley,

3900 jobs? Please compare that with the figures at Pyms Lane from 1966-91. I'll leave you to find those figures yourself and get back to me to discuss this further.

Engines? How silly of me! I thought that in order to manufacture engines you'd need a foundry, machining facilities and all the rest. No just a few bods screwing W12's shipped in so they can claim the engine is' 'Built in Crewe". Perhaps that old foundry at the end of South Ave on the plant was not torn down and I had a momentary mental collapse. I do apologise.

CKD?

With something around 70% of materials and components/complete sub-assemblies coming from mainly Germany and Europe, and being trucked up the M6 and A500, at what point would you consider it NOT a CKD operation?

And how many apprentices have they taken on there? If this was a true manufacturing plant.........

Over to you.

 

[Diewaldo]

Canley,

3900 jobs? Please compare that with the figures at Pyms Lane from 1966-91. I'll leave you to find those figures yourself and get back to me to discuss this further.

Engines? How silly of me! I thought that in order to manufacture engines you'd need a foundry, machining facilities and all the rest. No just a few bods screwing W12's shipped in so they can claim the engine is' 'Built in Crewe". Perhaps that old foundry at the end of South Ave on the plant was not torn down and I had a momentary mental collapse. I do apologise.

CKD?

With something around 70% of materials and components/complete sub-assemblies coming from mainly Germany and Europe, and being trucked up the M6 and A500, at what point would you consider it NOT a CKD operation?

And how many apprentices have they taken on there? If this was a true manufacturing plant.........

Over to you.

Well, that's mainly because it doesn't make sense to set up a manufacturing for such a small number of engines etc.

See it as a fact: The cars they were building before everything was sold to BMW/VW were ancient by all means. They would have gone broke sooner or later ... so I wonder what's all that whining about!

 

[sadtosee]

Canley,

3900 jobs? Please compare that with the figures at Pyms Lane from 1966-91. I'll leave you to find those figures yourself and get back to me to discuss this further.

To be fair, surely the number of employees has reduced in all established car making operations as technology has improved? You take number of employees as a benchmark just about all European and US car makers have reduced numbers drastically.

Engines? How silly of me! I thought that in order to manufacture engines you'd need a foundry, machining facilities and all the rest. No just a few bods screwing W12's shipped in so they can claim the engine is' 'Built in Crewe". Perhaps that old foundry at the end of South Ave on the plant was not torn down and I had a momentary mental collapse. I do apologise.

Fair enough, but loads of car companies centralise engine production in one place. Jaguar do not make engines at a Jaguar factory, PSA get many of their engines from a Ford factory, BMW's made in Germany get their engines from a UK factory etc. Car companies have centralised engine production in endless cases - interestingly many have chosen to do it in the UK.

CKD?

With something around 70% of materials and components/complete sub-assemblies coming from mainly Germany and Europe, and being trucked up the M6 and A500, at what point would you consider it NOT a CKD operation?

By that measure couldn't just about any car assembly plant be considered a CKD outfit? Very few actually make anything on site and often a majority of the car is bought in from 3rd parties spread throughout the world.

 

[ZRsteve]

Bentley engine production

http://www.autoindustry.co.uk/docs/EngineReportUpdate.pdf.

Bentley Motors Ltd
Bentley Motors headquarters in Crewe, Cheshire, designs, engineers and builds
luxury vehicles for some 45 markets around the world. It also produces the necessary
engines to power these cars. In 1998, the company was acquired by Volkswagen and
announced an investment of £500million into new facilities and product development.
The company now employs 3,500 people, including an engineering team of 550, all of
whom are dedicated to Bentley products.
Bentley Motors is the world's largest single producer of the 12 cylinder engine, with a
33% share of the global market. In 2004, the company built 7,686 engines in Crewe,
manufactured to power the Bentley Arnage, the Continental GT and the newly
launched Continental Flying Spur.


The V8 engine is an impressive beast:

http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/bentley-arnage-t-2007.htm

The 6761cc V8 engine is the centrepiece of the new 2007 Model Year Arnage development programme, whose fundamental design has served Bentley models for nearly five decades. An extensive re-engineering programme was created to provide the Arnage T specification with 373kW (500bhp) and 1000Nm of torque, taking it's top speed from 270km/h to 288km/h (179mph), which is breathtakingly fast for something so large and with little attention paid to aerodynamics.

 

[Interloper]

Well, that's mainly because it doesn't make sense to set up a manufacturing for such a small number of engines etc.

Sorry to torpedo your point, but they were building fewer cars with a full engine manufacturing facility there.

The latest generation of Bentleys are, under the pretty skin, as British as the Bismark and I invite anyone to refute that.

 

[Interloper]

http://www.autoindustry.co.uk/docs/EngineReportUpdate.pdf.

Bentley Motors Ltd
Bentley Motors headquarters in Crewe, Cheshire, designs, engineers and builds
luxury vehicles for some 45 markets around the world. It also produces the necessary
engines to power these cars. In 1998, the company was acquired by Volkswagen and
announced an investment of £500million into new facilities and product development.
The company now employs 3,500 people, including an engineering team of 550, all of
whom are dedicated to Bentley products.
Bentley Motors is the world's largest single producer of the 12 cylinder engine, with a
33% share of the global market. In 2004, the company built 7,686 engines in Crewe,
manufactured to power the Bentley Arnage, the Continental GT and the newly
launched Continental Flying Spur.


The V8 engine is an impressive beast:

http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/bentley-arnage-t-2007.htm

The 6761cc V8 engine is the centrepiece of the new 2007 Model Year Arnage development programme, whose fundamental design has served Bentley models for nearly five decades. An extensive re-engineering programme was created to provide the Arnage T specification with 373kW (500bhp) and 1000Nm of torque, taking it's top speed from 270km/h to 288km/h (179mph), which is breathtakingly fast for something so large and with little attention paid to aerodynamics.

Where is the foundry?

Where are the machining facilities?

Where are the engine research and test facilites?

Where are the design facilities?

For crying out loud, those engines ARE NOT BUILT, NEITHER ARE THEY DESIGNED OR RESEARCHED AT CREWE. They are assembled there from parts supplied by VW. Period. Or does this deception not matter now in this day and age?

 

[ZRsteve]

Where is the foundry?

Where are the machining facilities?

Where are the engine research and test facilites?

Where are the design facilities?

For crying out loud, those engines ARE NOT BUILT, NEITHER ARE THEY DESIGNED OR RESEARCHED AT CREWE. They are assembled there from parts supplied by VW. Period. Or does this deception not matter now in this day and age?

For the V12 I expect that is largely true, as it's based on a VW engine.

As for the V8, I don't know, but I would expect it is still entirely developed and built in the UK.

Does anyone know for sure?

 

[Interloper]

By that measure couldn't just about any car assembly plant be considered a CKD outfit? Very few actually make anything on site and often a majority of the car is bought in from 3rd parties spread throughout the world.

Of course not. Just about every car plant has components bought in from all over the place, only a fool would deny that. But the difference is, like the R-R, MINI, et al, is that nothing else other than assembly goes on there - just like the plants set up in Iran to manufacture the Peykan (nee Hillman Hunter) and the Leyland operations in Zetland (Sydney, Aus) back in the 70's.

There is no enginering or technical design - the real brains behind it - being carried out at Cowley, Goodwood, and only a paucity being carried out at Crewe...It would take a lot more than 550 engineers to make a new Bentley, wouldn't you say?

They were used just as assembly outposts, just as we are being used now. (and how)

 

[Diewaldo]

Sorry to torpedo your point, but they were building fewer cars with a full engine manufacturing facility there.

The latest generation of Bentleys are, under the pretty skin, as British as the Bismark and I invite anyone to refute that.

Yes, but I guess that manufacturing was nowhere near being profitable. I am sure they could have done that, but they are building cars to earn money ...

 

[Phil]

I know this has been mentioned before a long time ago in a previous thread but.........?

Ian Robertson, chairman and chief executive of Rolls-Royce Motor Cars

EDIT: Ive changed Ian's name to his previous name with his surname!

 

[sadtosee]

It would take a lot more than 550 engineers to make a new Bentley, wouldn't you say?

Maybe, but how many did they have before VW bought them? Not many (probably less) I'd guess and when Vickers owned them they didn't even bolt anything to the engines in the end - they came complete in a box from BMW and they stuck on a bit of plastic saying Rolls-Royce or Bentley.

A seperate engine plant for a small company doesn't really make sense if there is another option which is why all the large car groups tend to provide their smaller subsidaries with engines from a main plant. It is by dipping into larger group facilities that small divisions like Bentley can stay in business.

Yes, it would be nicer if they were owned by a large international UK car company of the size of VW, but there isn't one and hasn't been for years so in the circumstances I'm quite happy they're part of the VW group and apparantly prospering.

 

[Bob S]

IIRC, the foundry and machine shops were shut down when Vickers still owned the company and the decision was made to contract out to BMW for the engines on the new-generation models planned for 1998.

The old 6.75L V8 was getting on in years, and Vickers just wasn't interested in investing the sums needed to either properly update it or develop a replacement, so sourcing engines from BMW was the fastest, easiest, and cheapest way to get new, state of the art powerplants that were at least somewhat worthy of powering cars of R-R/Bentley's calibre.

Rolls still needed some supplies of the old engines, but not in enough quantities to warrant maintaining their own facilities, with so much of the range now BMW powered. I believe production of the 6.75L unit was outsourced to a British firm somewhere in the vicinity of Crewe, that has continued to supply them to Bentley to this day- and in greater and greater numbers, now that the Arnage has been reengineered to accept the 50s-era unit in place of the original BMW lump.

With Bentley V8s still fully manufactured in the UK, and all other engines at least bolted together in Britain, Bentleys built under VW ownership are arguably more British now than they were in the last days under Vickers.

 

[Chas70]

A quick look at www.bentleymotors.co.uk confirms Canleys description of the Bentley operations in Crewe.

His description of the RR operation seems right too, although www.rolls-roycemotorcars.com is less informative than the Bentley site.

Being fair, the offricial websites will only contain the 'good' news they want opeople to read. There is a lot more behind the scenes than appears there.