I think Mad still has/had wingy injectors for maximum power, but the sdi's seem 'neater' for say 160bhp etc with very little smoke and neat dyno graphs. Would have thought wingy spec ones were best for all out high figures though.

Which type did you use to get that 1/4 mile time and what was your setup generally - do you know your bhp/torque etc? (impressive run btw)

Cheers, James

 

My car with sdi injectors requests very little fuel, the performance gains are from the advance timing and torque limiter. Im thinking that Matt can give another 15 bhp of fuel fairly easily with the sdi injectors bring it to around 170 bhp. Of course this has not been achieved yet, because of the cooling problem. I think we will know when Roberto sorts out his engine.

 

I might go on the rollers next Saturday....:bgrin2:

 

To the rollers with full power? Hmm, this could be interesting.

I was considering popping over this week myself. I want to know if I broke 160 bhp after my last series of mods, which included a new clutch (it slipped on last RR day), diff, calibrated injectors and remap. I do think with all of these mods, I can get another 3bhp!

However with the ZS on the quick build, Im struggling to justify the expense.

 

To the rollers with full power? Hmm, this could be interesting.

Yup,atm i have no coolant or clutch issues,everythings fine and i just did a full service.I'm running with a remap giving good performance and just a bit of smoke,so guess i'm at the limit fuel wise with the mods i have.I also have a new mod i want to test on the air side...double open cone...i want to see if it makes any difference performance wise.
I'll keep you all updated if i go on Saturday.

 

Don't Wingy injectors produce shed loads of smoke?

Depends if you want to pass an MOT or not i'd say, i know SDi's in my R25 flew through the MOT recently.

I'd imagine they would produce more power than SDi's, but wouldn't want to risk high EGT's etc.

Cheers
Dave

 

I'd imagine they would produce more power than SDi's, but wouldn't want to risk high EGT's etc.

Cheers
Dave

On a std ZR/25 113 version wingy spec produce more then SDI's:
-SDI's about 135bhp
-Wingy about 150bhp

 

If you want power, then wingy injectors are the way forward.

As a matter of fact, any standard-to-your-car/pump set of injector with 'wingy' nozzles are probably the most adequate. That way we arn't messing with break pressure which can screw timing and smoke up.

Fuel when burnt produces energy, air when burnt does sod all. But fuel needs air to burn.

With this in mind, inject more fuel with a surplus of air and you will create more torque at that given rpm, which automatically increases horsepower at that particular rpm, as rpm, torque and horsepower are all strictly relational to each other. Increase torque at peak hp revs (about 4000) and your peak power will rise too, aswell as across the rev range.

It is common practice for diesel tuners, professional ones too, to fit bigger injector nozzles. You get to a point and it's necessary.

Smoke is not a simple subject, and you can't say 'it smokes therefore you have too much fuel.'.

It just doesn't work like that.

Get a good turbo, and a good set of injectors, and a good tuner. That's all you need.

 

i wonder why mine produced 5 bhp and 5 more torks with sdis and a hollow backbox over wingys injectors and box?

 

this would probably be due to egt from the injectors, how much power are you looking for as this will ultimately choose your injectors for you?

 

Until Matt took a 'lot' of fuel out my map, my car smoked like a trooper on the standard map, but it was not too bad afterwards.

I would image it will be lower still with FMIC fitted...

If i was going to do it again, i would not put the wingy injectors in until i was with Matt getting it remapped, they did smoke like hell on the standard 115 map and the physical temp of the engine was quite a suprise to me... Esp as i had not been able to give it much beans as i kept loosing IC hoses!

i am sure that the same would follow if you had a remap for the SDI's too.

As said i think wingy will result in a higher top end figure, but they do require a lot more time for matt to tweak the map...

 

Good luck buddy

Cheers, James

 

OK guys got some results...a bit weird tho...166.6 PS (164,2 bhp) and 301 N/m (222 lb/ft) of torque...???
Yeah,that's right,222 lb/ft of torque...very strange,was expecting at least 250 lb/ft...and the clutch is not slipping.
Anyways really happy about the bhp figures,got exactly what Matt expected and what i was hoping for,too bad for the torque figures...but Matt is already working on it...LOL!!!
Here's the print out,unfortunately i noticed only when i got home that torque is not shown on the graph (don't ask me why),but i did see it on the computer screen after the run,it was really nice and pushing all the way through the rev range (the bloke at the garage said it was spot on!!!).

 

Ooppss...i'm a bit OT...maybe i should start a new thread?

 

Nice BHP figure there Roberto but as you say a little strange on the torque figure but not impossible as the first ever time i took my car on the rolling road after i fitted a stage 1 Hybrid i hit 151 BHP and 201 lbs/ft of torque so sliding those figures up the scale in comparrison and 163.8 BHP and 222 lbs/ft does sound possible especially more so if you head gasket is on it way as suspected.

What Matt thinks wrong with the mapping?

Cheers Mark.

 

Thanks mate!!!
Matt hasn't said anything yet...i told him the results just a few minutes ago but he's gonna take a look and see if there's something he can do.

 

220lbft isn't bad. Naturally the car would probably produce more, for that horsepower, but unless you specifically want a torque curve (say, me, for instance) I'd be tempted to keep it because people would kill for a flat torque curve like that (and it would have to be darn flat to make 160hp out of 220lbft with our rev-range).

In regards to the OP - wingy's don't always make smoke.


Now I've a question for the techheads - has anyone tried having their wingy injectors re-calibrated to a higher break pressure (increase atomization) and have their timing mapped recalibrated to suit?

Should in theory be able to push more fuel for the same quantity of air that way. Higher break pressure makes a finer mist, as the pump has to over-ride this, the mist travels further, droplets are smaller, because of this they burn faster (and it's Bosch telling us that so I'd trust the theory) and basically make better use of air, especially at the top end of the rev rnage.


Good result though mate. Nothing to be sniffed at, despite the torque.

 

Now I've a question for the techheads - has anyone tried having their wingy injectors re-calibrated to a higher break pressure (increase atomization) and have their timing mapped recalibrated to suit?

Should in theory be able to push more fuel for the same quantity of air that way. Higher break pressure makes a finer mist, as the pump has to over-ride this, the mist travels further, droplets are smaller, because of this they burn faster (and it's Bosch telling us that so I'd trust the theory) and basically make better use of air, especially at the top end of the rev rnage.

Dakta, yes I looked into getting some wingy nozzels fitted to sdi injectors second stages. Wingy was very much against the idea. It was very much his way or the highway. I choose the highway, built the hyrbid injectors and still have a car that works.

My way was always was the highway occasionally you pass and wave at assosciates but each has his own lane and turnoff.

I think it would be a worthy experiment, but the wingy nozzles would have to be a must to ensure a decent quantity can be delivered.

As I have a spare set of wriggly injectors I wonder where I could have them done (if you change the first stage it changes the second, as the second stage is cumulative with the first as far as spring pressure goes) and not all diesel specialists can do that. Not something I'd do myself as the shims come in sizes that really need a microscope to detect, so wants a proper bosch supplier etc to set up the BP's.

Well Reading everything above you've confused me slightly in your thinking between you.

I've discussed this with both Wingy and ETV i don't know if both of you are aware of this and could of possible been misslead like i was until i did some investigative work into one of my wingy injectors and a brand new SDi one quite a while ago now.

After dismantling them and getting a micrometer to the shims i found out that the shims in wingy's where thicker than those in the SDi which really throw my intial thinking that Wingy's injectors where of a lower break pressure than standard SDi's so after talking to Dave further about it he actually confirmed that the extra fuel flow was down to the knozzle design and that the break pressure was actually around 205 bar meaning that compared to a later injector at 210 bar they would naturally flow more fuel but also still flow more than the 200 bar SDi even though there break pressure is above that due to the larger knozzle design.

So maybe that would explain Dave's reasoning for why he thought putting SDi first stages with his knozzle would not be the way to go as you would have been reducing the break pressure and increasing the flow and really compromising the fuels atomisation.

More to me the way to experiment would be to take a later 210 bar first stage and try that with a wingy knozzle thus giving a higher break pressure than a wingy injector and maybe better atomisation and still have higher flow with his nozzle over a standard SDi item.

Cheers Mark.

 

Well, that is an interesting result and one that I was not expecting.

If people dont know, Roberto's car is very similar to mine, except that he has a hybrid turbo. So, he is basically able to achieve another 10 bhp with the turbo and use less torque.

I suspect our maps are very much different. I dont think Roberto is using an advanced timing map, as this would really shoot up the low end torque.

Personally, I would be over the moon with such low torque figures.

 

I suspect our maps are very much different. I dont think Roberto is using an advanced timing map, as this would really shoot up the low end torque.

Your right there John,no advanced timing at all if i remember correctly.

 

Dakta, yes I looked into getting some wingy nozzels fitted to sdi injectors second stages. Wingy was very much against the idea. It was very much his way or the highway. I choose the highway, built the hyrbid injectors and still have a car that works.

 

Dakta, yes I looked into getting some wingy nozzels fitted to sdi injectors second stages. Wingy was very much against the idea. It was very much his way or the highway. I choose the highway, built the hyrbid injectors and still have a car that works.

My way was always was the highway occasionally you pass and wave at assosciates but each has his own lane and turnoff.

I think it would be a worthy experiment, but the wingy nozzles would have to be a must to ensure a decent quantity can be delivered.

As I have a spare set of wriggly injectors I wonder where I could have them done (if you change the first stage it changes the second, as the second stage is cumulative with the first as far as spring pressure goes) and not all diesel specialists can do that. Not something I'd do myself as the shims come in sizes that really need a microscope to detect, so wants a proper bosch supplier etc to set up the BP's.

 

By the way,the graph says that max power is reached at 4140 rpm and max torque at 2730 rpms.
Sorry about it being in Italian......couldn't get it in English unfortunately.

 

Well that's simply not right.

Has fuelling been cut somewhere? Did you overboost at all?

 

Yes, I think wingy injectors have lower break pressures, because I had a set that had 187 psi stamped on them. However, when I chatted with Diesel Bob he clearly stated that break pressure does not increase fueling. So, I have always had a bit of confusion in the back of my head.

What I dont understand about setting the break pressure with shims, is that do you use Shim A to get 200 psi, Shim B to get 210 psi? Or, do you use a range of shims to until you get the right break pressure? I would actually think you shim until you get the psi that you are after, as the tolerances must be very tight and the shim is the only variable.

Like you, I would think perhaps using 210 second stages might be a better place to start, if one was going to start messing around with the wingy nozzles.

 

I must state though it might say kellogs on buses, it doesn't mean its full of cereal! 187 written on the injector or not wingy's are deffinatley between 205bar in the case of mine been the first most extreme set ever made with later sets been possibly very slightly higher to help make them a little less extreme maybe around 206-207bar.

What the break pressure achieves as i think dakta has explained before is the time within the injection cycle that the injector spends open the higher break pressure the later in the cycle it opens and the less time over all it spends open.

So even though it doesn't directly effect the amount of fuel that can be flowed by the injector in a single instant it still effects how much fuel over all is injected by effecting the time it spends open.

Cheers Mark.

 

Yes this is my understanding of break pressure as well. It is basically, when does the flood gates open! I very much recall, on Wingy's description of the injectors he did state that fueling is added to chamber sooner. This makes me believe that the break pressure has been lowered.

Now if I get this right, lowering the break pressure is similar to advancing the timing on the map? The only difference is doing it mechanically via break pressure results in poorer atomization.

 

I don't know where to begin.

The great thing about this forum, is that everyone's been keen to get stuck in and learn a thing or two. Most of you (me inclusive) wouldn't know a break pressure from their sock without this interest, and it would have been oh-so-easy to tune our cars had the parts been available off the shelf without having to learn anything.

We could have all become 'happy mickeys' and tear around without half a clue. We don't, and that's great.

But we shouldn't be complacent, there's plenty to come yet.

...For example, it's not long ago, since the most knowledgable amongst us considered break pressure to alter the fuel quantity injected enormously. True, but not in the way we thought.

You know, so many of these mysteries remain unsolved. Take static timing for instance, how do we know that the pump adjusts against incorrect static timing? how does one know know it isn't just for the sole purpose of adjusting dynamic timing on the fly, and will not bias to compensate for a biased static timing?

You test the theory. I offset my vp37 timing with etv a few days ago, and the pump threw a sulk and put on the mil lamp (only when it got to a point where it couldn't compensate).

Anyway, to the point. Injectors and break pressure.


A two stage injector has two break pressures, one for each stage, pilot injection and main injection. The break pressure is set by springs, which are forced open when the fuel inside the injector reaches a certain pressure. The springs are stacked on top of each other, so the pressure of one acts on the other, so to adjust one means sometimes throwing the other out. Hence the term 'calibration' rather than 'installation'. Both sets of springs have to work together to get their own unique break pressure right.

The number stamped on the injectors refer to the pilot injection pressure rather than the main injection.

Increasing break pressure, in theory as I said makes a finer mist etc. This is fact, as diesel wouldn't burn if you dribbled it in - and the main reason why high-pressure common rail technology is a good comepetitor in diesel power.

Most high power VAG tdi's are running injectors with the pressures artifically raised. 230bar pilot against 310-320bar main injection is a popular combination, though I have read of the pilot injection been raised to figures as high as 290bar without problems.

One mythbusting theory (apparently) is that break pressure in fact does alter quantity. And not in the way you would expect.

Take two injectors, both identical but different break pressures. The one with the higher break pressure will in a lot of cases deliver more, simply because it's duration of being open will be spent with the fluid moving at a higher pressure. There is an arguement against this. Another myth eh?

Now, coming back to the static timing matter, it is wise at this point to remind everyone, that the injector lift sensor in your first injector, only detects the needle lift of the first stage (which is the spring right at the top end of the injector). That means if the main injection break pressure is altered, without the required callibration of the pilot injection, you will find your timing will be out, as the pump will only attempt to compensate based on when pilot injection opens, if the pump compensates at all.

It's a very delicate process, with the shims from bosch coming in sizes within a range of 1.6mm fopm smallest to largest, each with a difference of 10 microns. They can be set very precisely by a competant, equipped diesel specialist.

I'd like to see what could be done by raising the pressure to the likes of tuned vag tdi lumps. Providing the pilot injection is configured proportionately with the second stage, timing shouldn't be thrown out as the injector lift sensor will still catch the event.

 

Take two injectors, both identical but different break pressures. The one with the higher break pressure will in a lot of cases deliver more, simply because it's duration of being open will be spent with the fluid moving at a higher pressure. There is an arguement against this. Another myth eh?

simple thing to remember that will make it clearer is a fliud is incompressable. with a higher brake pressure two things can happen, the same quantity gets injected at a higher pressure, or the pump breaks! Kris knows all about this hey matey!

 

Why was the rolling road done in 5th gear?

The losses seem a little high too if I'm reading the numbers right (I can't read italian so I might be reading them wrong!).

The lower than expevet torque could be due to all sorts of things, the ECU map and the MAF sensor would be the prime two suspects if everything else is "normal"

 

Why was the rolling road done in 5th gear?

How did you figure that out Dan?
I have discussed this with Mad and Donny earlier because i noticed the max speed (it's on the graph) of 201km/h (120 mph)...it's impossible to reach it in fourth gear.

The losses seem a little high too if I'm reading the numbers right .

The lower than expected torque could be due to all sorts of things, the ECU map and the MAF sensor would be the prime two suspects if everything else is "normal"

Don't know about the ECU map,but the maf is almost new.I'm afraid the head gasket might have something to do with this unfortunately... :-(

 

Fluid isn't very compressible but it does compress!

Also remember that the injectors bleed off some of the fuel too, so it isn't a "sealed" system so to speak.

 

Well, if Zio's low torque is symptom of a poorly car, I would think that there is a potential for his headgasket is compromised and blowing at the 220 lbft mark.

 

Dakta: This all gets to be a complicated mess with the detonation phase. To my knowledge it is not one single event.

Really, we have a black box situation. We know or can figure out the input, e.g. fuel droplet size and volume into the chamber, "black box", and we can measure some of its outputs, e.g. torque, egt and emmissions. However, we dont know what is really going on the chamber. So, we want some sort of model of the black box. We can then use the model to predict the outputs based on the inputs. Further, statistically compare different black box models to see which one has the strongest predictive problem. Once this leg work is done and you have a good working model, you would be in a great position to optimizse the fueling of the chamber to acheive your goals.

From a scientific approach, I think you are doing fairly well. Keep drawing up a list of hypotheses, identify assumptions, collect data and draw known knowledge from other engines and literature.

 

were or how do i get wingys injctors

Can any 1 tell me how to get wingy injectors or how can i get old of him thanx

 

Can any 1 tell me how to get wingy injectors or how can i get old of him thanx

Wasn't it Diesel Bob who did the injectors anyway via Wingy that is, would email Bob tbh and see what he says.

 

search him on the forum, his username is Wingy777.

I don't think he comes on here a whole lot anymore, but may be worth a try. I've got his email somewhere but wouldn't want to give it out on his behalf tbh...

I don't think he does the injectors anymore but might know where you can get them done. With recent developments though unless you're going for a crazy big turbo I think you should look at the other options IMO :broon: