i know this will be moved soon but in gen chat no one ever seems to answer

what do you guys think


handed my notice in at beginning of week and got my monthly pay today which is 2 weeks in arrears and 2 weeks in advance

new place wants me to start monday...so i bailed quietly today and start new job on monday

by not working my notice i will owe the old company 2 weeks wages...they have already deducted a first aid course which i did 3 months ago quoting contract that as i was leaving within 12 months i had to pay it back...(bit miffed about that as its £232)

anyway, should i write them a letter offering to pay them the 2 weeks wages back in a couple of installments or just think stuff em, which has been the general consensus from a few friends so far

i know this will affect my reference and P45 too

I'll get back to you Andy (as PM)

AS far as i'm aware the P45 is yours. they have no right to hold on to it but they may drag their heels over sending it to new employer ?

Is the new job aware of the situation?

 

new job def aware and understand the sitution fully...P45 i know i will get eventually...can sign a P46 but i also have all my payslips and P60 so i know thats not the problem.....

 

Just a thought Jester...
When you say that you will only owe your old company 2 weeks money; have you checked your contract of employment to see what happens if you don't give them the required notice i.e. you may end up owing them 1 month's salary - unless of course you are using any holidays owed as part of your notice??

 

i looked into as much as i could before i made my decision...contract etc....payday is 15th hence paid today as its a sunday and have worked 2 weeks so would surely only owe 2 weeks coming ...worked one weeks notice as the law states minimum

 

From ACAS website;

How much notice of termination must I give?

Both you and your employees are normally entitled to a minimum period of notice of termination of employment. After one month's employment, your employee must give you at least one week's notice; this minimum is unaffected by longer service. You must give your employee:

• at least one week's notice after one month's employment
• two weeks after two years
• three weeks after three years and so on up to 12 weeks after 12 years or more

However, you and your employee will be entitled to a longer period of notice than the statutory minimum if this is provided for in the contract of employment.
Most employees, subject to certain conditions, are entitled to certain payments during the statutory notice period. Employees can waive their right to notice or to payment in lieu of notice. You can also waive your own right to notice.



Are you saying that you've only worked there for 2 weeks? Sorry bit confused.

May be worth contacting Acas on Monday, just to clarify things..

Regards Jackie

 

no was there 20 months, ive read nothing but acas and other websites for last 3 nights to be honest...i know im in the wrong basicaly but wondering what others think of situation...ie would you pay it back or see if they fancy their chances in small claims etc

 

As already stated it will depend on what your contract says about notice period as legally you are still employed by the existing company until that period of time has expired. They could ask you to turn up even if you just sat around all day. Did you agree a finish date? or are you just assuming that because you get paid two weeks in arrears that you can go in two weeks?

I've just had the opposite, getting made redundant and agreeing to leave immediately which meant my ex-employer was in breach of contract and they had to pay me my 12 weeks notice on top of the redundancy pay :smug_git:

Having said that I would expect that the worse that would happen is that you'd have to pay them for the time you didn't want to work - but then again I'm no expert, I just have a little bit of insight due to recent experience.

 

Only thing I would say is, if you don't give back the wages to your old employer, is it likely that you will need a reference from them in the future or again is it likely that you may need a job from them in the future

 

def wont need a job there again but the reference is my biggest worry...

 

Phone in sick next week, then you've done your 2 weeks notice.

 

yeah but technically if i phone in sick im still on their books and i start new job 9pm sunday night...

 

Hi Andy, sorry can't help you with your question - but I hope your old boss does not drive an MG..!!

Good luck with the new job.

 

As above,the old sick note.As your new employer is aware of your situation,surely if old employer dont give you a reference,doubt it will really matter to new employer.If they do write a reference,they are not legally meant to kick you down,only comment on honesty,reliability,punctuality...on second thoughts,your ******,lol.will new boss lend you part of wages so you can pay what you owe??then pay the new boss back monthly? hope works out Andy.

 

Personally, I would write, offering to repay it.

A somewhat similar situation has happened to me in that money was paid into my account in error. When I realised, I offered to repay it in instalments, and the company involved were very grateful, and I think, pleasantly surprised.

I could have held onto the money and let them try to recover it, but I felt that would leave me feeling morally wrong.

Your decision in the end.

 

no dilemma just go on the sick, your employeer wouldnt think twice if they had to lay you off. theyve already took money of you for a first aid course you owe them nothing.

 

Ok you got a qualification from the course and terminated your employment early, and as stated in your terms of employment you had to repay ..

If you "have" been paid 2 weeks in advance which would be very unusual, then you owe them the money ..

Your new employer might not mind how you left your previous employer, but the fact that you have had 2 weeks unearned wages puts you clearly in the wrong and will make future employers very wary of offering you work ..

I would suggest that you offer to repay the money and avoid the possibility of "No" reference, technically you cannot be given a bad reference, but any previous employer that refuses to give a reference to any prospective employer will seriously damage your chances of employment with said future employer ..

Catch 22 you could have gone on the sick, but that would have incurred a 50% tax levy on your new job as it would have been classed as secondary employment, thus not worth the effort ..

I would pay in full at the end of the month when you get your first months wages from your new employer, or if paid weekly put the said amount away until you do have the correct amount, and put it in writing to your previous employer that that is what you intend to do ..

All the best x

 

Ok you got a qualification from the course and terminated your employment early, and as stated in your terms of employment you had to repay ..

If you "have" been paid 2 weeks in advance which would be very unusual, then you owe them the money ..

Your new employer might not mind how you left your previous employer, but the fact that you have had 2 weeks unearned wages puts you clearly in the wrong and will make future employers very wary of offering you work ..

I would suggest that you offer to repay the money and avoid the possibility of "No" reference, technically you cannot be given a bad reference, but any previous employer that refuses to give a reference to any prospective employer will seriously damage your chances of employment with said future employer ..

Catch 22 you could have gone on the sick, but that would have incurred a 50% tax levy on your new job as it would have been classed as secondary employment, thus not worth the effort ..

I would pay in full at the end of the month when you get your first months wages from your new employer, or if paid weekly put the said amount away until you do have the correct amount, and put it in writing to your previous employer that that is what you intend to do ..

All the best x

Thats sound advice Andy, if you go sick but then they find out youve started at the new place it could cause you all sorts of problems, its really not worth the agg mate.

 

ok the sickie isnt an option, contact your ex employer and make then an offer say 1/4 of what they say you owe, if they dont accept tell them youll pay them back £1 a week

 

my first consideration is to do what you say jan

i was gonna offer say 3/4 of what i owe and pay in 2 installments and if they dont except that then they have to go through courts etc who would surely look favourably on the fact i had tried to resolve the situation

but i have had quite a few people say 'stuff em' as it isnt worth the effort to go through the courts for a relatively small amount to a company

i want to do whats right but then if the latter of previous sentence is true am i throwing away good money which could go towards lucifer?......

(or its approximately 20 good nights at the curry house )

 

The courts will want a valid reason as to why you did not want to pay the full amount you owe back, if you lose in court, which you will, you will the incur court costs on top, which will be high as you will attend to dispute the claim ..

The fact that you were with them 20 months will also go against you as it proves you were "relatively" happy in their employment ..

You will also get yourself a CCJ !!!

All company's no matter how big or small will take action, it will cost them nothing as it is tax deductable and small claims is only £25 to issue a claim ..

The only other option is to act thick and sit tight, wait for them to contact you and when/if they do reply immediately saying due to personal circumstances, change of bank is a good one, you had not noticed the error and offer to pay as previously stated ..


I hate to be Devils advocate, but the friends that tell you to stuff it are not looking at the bigger picture, or how it could affect you long term ..

 

It's just not worth the hassle !

How the claim form is served

Usually the court will serve the claim form by sending it to the defendant by first class post. The defendant will be deemed to receive it on the second day after posting. As the claimant, if you want to serve it yourself, you can ask the court to give it back to you once it has been stamped so that you can serve it. There are a number of forms that must be sent with the claim form.
If the defendant is not defending the case

If you are the defendant and you accept that you owe the money claimed, you will not be defending the case and the court will not allocate it to the small claims track to be dealt with.
If you can pay the money immediately, you should send it to the claimant directly.
If you need time to pay, you can suggest an arrangement, for example, that you pay the money in instalments or all the money in one lump sum at a certain date in the future. If the claimant accepts this offer, they will have to return a form to court requesting ‘judgment on admission’. If you are the defendant and you do not keep to the arrangement, the claimant can take legal action forcing you to pay.
If you are the claimant and you do not accept the defendant's offer, you must give your reasons and a court official will decide what a reasonable arrangement should be. The court will send both parties an order for payment (‘judgment for claimant after determination’).
If you are the claimant and you are not happy with the order, you should write to the court giving your reasons and you must send a copy of the letter to the defendant. A judge will then decide what is reasonable for the defendant to pay. If the defendant does not keep to the arrangement, the claimant can take enforcement action.
If the defendant is defending the case

If you are the defendant and you do not accept that you owe the money that is being claimed, you will be defending the case. You have to respond to the claim form and the particulars of claim within 14 days of the date of service (this is the second day after posting). If the particulars of claim were served after the claim form, you must respond within 14 days of the date of service of the particulars of claim.
As the defendant, if you do not send a defence in to the court, the claimant can ask for an order to be made against you. If this happens, the parties involved should consult an experienced adviser, for example, a Citizens Advice Bureau. To search for details of your nearest CAB, including those that can give advice by email, click on

nearest CAB.
As the defendant, you can send your defence to the court. However, if you need more time to prepare a defence, you can send back an acknowledgement of service and then the defence within 14 days (the acknowledgement of service would be sent to the defendant initially with the claim form).
When the defence is returned to the court, the court will send an allocation questionnaire to both the claimant and defendant. This must be returned no later than the date specified on it. As the claimant, when you return the allocation questionnaire, you have to pay a fee although this may be waived on financial grounds. The court will use the information given on the allocation questionnaire to decide which track the case will be allocated to.
The notice of allocation

When the court has decided to allocate the case to the small claims track, the parties will be sent a notice of allocation. This form will tell the parties what they have to do to prepare for the final hearing. These instructions are called ‘directions’. For example, the parties may be told to send copies of all the documents they intend to use to the court and to the other party at least 14 days before the hearing is due to take place. You must follow these directions. If you don't, the case could be postponed and you could have to pay all the costs of the case.
There are standard directions for a number of common cases, for example, if the claim is to do with faulty goods, there are standard directions about the documents that have to be sent to the other party. If the claimant wants to show a video as evidence, they have to contact the court to make the arrangements for the video to be shown at the hearing.
The hearing date

The notice of allocation will usually specify the time, date and place where the hearing will take place and how much time has been allowed for it.
As the claimant, if you want to attend the hearing, but cannot, you can write to the court and apply for a later date to be set. A fee is payable for this application and the court will agree only if there are good reasons.
As the claimant, you may not wish to attend the court hearing, for example, if the travel costs of getting to the hearing are higher than your claim merits. In this case, you can write to the court to ask it to deal with the claim in your absence. The letter must arrive at court no later than seven days before the hearing date, and a copy must be sent to the defendant.
Sometimes the court will not set a final hearing date at the allocation stage. It could instead:

• propose that the claim is dealt with without a hearing. If the parties do not object, the case will be decided on the papers only. If the parties do not reply by the date given, the judge may treat the lack of reply as consent
• hold a preliminary hearing. This could happen if the claim requires special directions which the judge wants to explain to the parties personally, or where the judge feels that the claimant (or the defendant) has no real prospect of succeeding and wants to sort out the claim as soon as possible to save everyone time and expense, or if the papers do not show any reasonable grounds for bringing the claim. A preliminary hearing, therefore, could become a final hearing where the matter is decided once and for all.

Preparing the case

It is important to prepare the case carefully - the court has to be convinced. The following points are a general guide to what preparation should be made. But if you are not confident about how to present your case, you should consider taking someone else along to help, and/or getting specialist advice first. The main points are:

• if you have a low income you can use the legal help scheme, to cover the cost of legal advice (but not representation) from a solicitor. This advice can include getting expert reports, for example, on faulty goods (but a report may be used in court only with the permission of the court)
• notes about the case should be set out in date order. It is very useful to note down what your case is, for example, the points to make, the documents which are relevant, and what they prove. A list of all documents, and other evidence is useful to make sure nothing is forgotten
• damaged or faulty goods should be taken as evidence, if possible, for instance, clothes ruined by a washing machine, shoes etc. If this is not possible, photographs could be used instead
• evidence of expenses should be prepared and any receipts taken along
• all letters (and any other relevant documents including photographs) about the case should be ready for the hearing
• in most cases the claimant and the defendant may be the only witnesses. If the court has agreed that other witnesses can attend, they must attend. If a witness has difficulty getting time off work, it may be helpful to serve a witness summons. The court can explain how to do this
• if you wish to use an expert witness, you must get the permission of the court first, and you must instruct the expert jointly with the other party in the case.

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The final hearing

The final hearing is usually held in public but it could be held in private if the parties agree, or if the court believes it necessary in the interests of justice.
Hearings in the small claims track are informal and strict rules of evidence do not apply. The judge can adopt any method of dealing with the hearing that they consider to be fair, and they may ask questions of the witnesses before allowing anyone else to do so. The judge may limit the time that parties or witnesses have to give evidence.
A lay representative has the right to speak on behalf of a party at the final hearing, but only if that party attends the hearing.
If you do not speak English as your first language, you might find it helpful to have an interpreter help you to put your case. The court will not be able to help you find an interpreter.
If you need help with finding an interpreter, you should consult an experienced adviser for example, at a Citizens Advice Bureau. To search for details of your nearest CAB, including those that can give advice by email, click on

nearest CAB.
At the end of the hearing, the judge will give the judgment. The judge has to give reasons for their judgment. The reasons must be given as simply and briefly as possible, and usually will be given orally to the parties present at the hearing. However, the judge may give them later either in writing or at a later hearing.
If you are the claimant and you win your case, you will get the court fees back as well as the claim, and you can ask for certain expenses also. If you lose, you will not get the court fees back. But it is unlikely that you will have to pay any other costs.
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Appeals

You may appeal against a judgment in the small claims track only if the court made a mistake in law or there was a serious irregularity in the proceedings. If you want to appeal, you must file a notice of appeal within 21 days. A fee is payable although this could be waived in cases of financial hardship.
If you want to appeal against a decision in the small claims track, you should consult a solicitor or an experienced adviser for example, at a Citizens Advice Bureau. To search for details of your nearest CAB, including those that can give advice by email, click on

nearest CAB.
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Enforcement of court orders

As the defendant, if you lose the case and you do not pay, the claimant will have to go back to the same court to apply for an order to get the money. This is called enforcing the judgment. As the claimant, you will have to pay a fee to start enforcement proceedings.
If you need a judgement to be enforced you should consult an experienced adviser for example, at a Citizens Advice Bureau. To search for details of your nearest CAB, including those that can give advice by email, click on

nearest CAB

 

BLOODY HELL

judge judy is amongst us!!!!


will take me a while to read that at this time of night jan..

will get back to you in due course...many thanks chuck

 

Google is your friend ..
I copied it for you as I thought you might just want to see the inconvenience it will cause you, not to mention the time off work x

 

If it was me I would just pay them it back, you haven't earned it from them so they would be reasonable in asking for it. You could always play dumb and just wait for them to ask for it back and pay it then. :dunno:

 

dont want to lead you up i blind alley but i thought if your paying the money back (even at £1 week) and it ends up in court you dont get a ccj. mind you my thoughts have got me into trouble once or twice

 

Sorry jonnocash, but not true.

If you come to an "agreement" with a creditor to pay said amount then this MAY stop any further action, but they still have the right within the statute of limitations act (6years for non priority debts/ 12 years for mortgages/ none for court fines/ CSA) to enforce court action = CCJ. They can do this when ever they please, or in particular if you default on payments.

Common thought amongst folk is that they believe an "unsecured debt" will not have an effect on their property- not so! Any debt over £750 can be secured as a "charging order" on the property. This prohibits you selling property without lender/creditors knowing, and also gathers interest...

Off me soap box now :wavecry:

 

forget the MORAL dilemma...do what is RIGHT, legally...then you can sleep at night and not worry about what may/maynot happen in the future.

There's no morals involved...the money isn't yours...would you take it in any other circumstances???

 

^^This. I was in your position once, and although it felt like spending 'dead' money by giving it back - trust me you will feel better

 

thanks all

My initial idea was/is to pay it back but with some people saying leave it is the reason i thought id ask here

The first aid thing grates on me but it is in contract

It is about 700 quid so will offer couple of installments

The rights and wrongs of notice periods etc ive looked up all week and pretty ok with it although never walked off a job before

 

Andy, you are an honest character! You do yourself credit.

I think you might like to be a little economical with the truth.
Personally I think despite the battles of the Unions etc over that last 100 years to get a fair deal for employees, companies will hold you down to the last penny. Getting you repay for training recently is a miserable thing to do.

Take the money and leave, how are they to know?

 

It is very easy to issue CCJ proceedings - we do it via the internet quite frequently to people who don't pay their bills. It costs peanuts to do and usually has the desired effect.

If I were you Andy I would write your previous employer a letter explaining the facts and make them an offer to repay in installments. As has been mentioned, if your employer refuses and takes you to court the offer will be recognised by the court and it is likely that they will determine that your employer is acting unreasonably.

I have spoken to our HR Director and he says that in practice, even when these clauses are written in the contract of employment, they are difficult to apply. The only real way of a company getting the money back is to deduct it from the final wage payment.