define seriously over heating?

t-series can handle a bit of extra heat but i'd be checking compression accross the pistons if it were me. 140-150 should be ok. Will tell you if you have warped the head at least.

 

thanks ill do the compression test tomorrow but i cant figure out why it wont even start i have also reset the fuel shut off valve due to going off when being towed.

thanks

graham

 

Do a compression test. When seriously overheated even if you don't blow the headgasket the valve seats can move causing the valves not to seat correctly and so a lack of compression.

If the compression readings are low or you can tow start it ok but it'll not idle or start from the key then I'd suggest that is a strong possibility.

 

Hello everyone i have done the compression test and the readings are

cyl 1 7 bar 100psi
cyl 3 4 bar 58psi
cyl 4 4 bar 58 psi
cyl 2 4 bar 58psi

the car wont tow start ethier can anyone suggest what could ahve gone wrong with the engine after it has over heated.

thanks

graham

 

That is seriously knackered.
Turbo should be 150psi ish
NASP should be 180psi ish

Presuming the compression test was done properly and the cam timing is correct (worth checking), then the head will have to come off to find the cause of the low compression.

 

That is seriously knackered.
Turbo should be 150psi ish
NASP should be 180psi ish

Presuming the compression test was done properly and the cam timing is correct (worth checking), then the head will have to come off to find the cause of the low compression.

thanks for your advice ETV do you think it could just be the head that is the problem or would you recomend replacing the whole lump.

i have been offer another lump for £30 but i cant here it running as the car is an insurance wright off and the salvage yard doesnt have the imobiliser key to disarm the imobiliser.

Also if i take the head off what signs am i looking for?

thanks in advance

graham

 

I'd take the head off anyway. If there are obvious signs of the headgasket blowing then get the head checked for flatness. If it is warped then it'll need skimming. Also whilst the head is off carefully look down the ports with the valves closed. You'll see light leaking around any valves that aren't seating correctly. You can fill the ports up with water and look underneath for water leaking from the valves as an alternative method.

If it is a turbo then look at the pistons for signs of melting or scoring in the bore from broken piston rings. NASP pistons are usually pretty bombproof.

A lump for £30 sounds like a bargain and if the head is good then it may be worth swapping the two if the bottom end of the current engine looks good.
If the bottom end looks ropey then swap the whole engine over.

 

heads off pics comming

I'd take the head off anyway. If there are obvious signs of the headgasket blowing then get the head checked for flatness. If it is warped then it'll need skimming. Also whilst the head is off carefully look down the ports with the valves closed. You'll see light leaking around any valves that aren't seating correctly. You can fill the ports up with water and look underneath for water leaking from the valves as an alternative method.

If it is a turbo then look at the pistons for signs of melting or scoring in the bore from broken piston rings. NASP pistons are usually pretty bombproof.

A lump for £30 sounds like a bargain and if the head is good then it may be worth swapping the two if the bottom end of the current engine looks good.
If the bottom end looks ropey then swap the whole engine over.

Hello ETV i have taken the head off today, i have some pics but it might take me a while to upload them as im not vey good with computers.

unexpectedly i found a clinger 4 layer head gasket that came away very easy from the block are these fitted as standard? as i can find anything in the service history saying that it has had a hg done.

cant see any obvious signs of scoring in the bores but they look like they have been honed out, the cros****ch lines are still there.
there was lots of oily carbon deposits on top of the pistons also when i took the head off there was lot of oil to the gearbox end of the engine on the block and the head.

i have drained the oil and there are no signs of water in the oil and vice versa.

i timed the engine up from the bottom pulley the timing mark facing 12 o,clock but the two cam sprockets marks were all over the place, checked the cam lobes and they seem to be in order with tdc.
does anyone know what these marks are supposed to align to as i cant get a manual for this model so im doing it blind.

i cant see any signs of cracking on the head the valves are a rusty colour tho.
checked for warpage with a straight edge and there seems to be a gap under the edge but ill double check this again with a longer true straight edge.

i dont know if this means anything but everything in the bay and engine are cover with a oily dirty grime??

like i said i have plenty of pics but might take a while to upload so watch this space.

i hope the problem is just the head as i have just rebuilt my wifes zafira that was smoking badly and suffered borewash oval bores and worn valve guides.

many thanks for any advice anyone can give.

graham

 

timing mark should be at 9 0clock when correctly done ...

the manual shows a picture as an illustration showing twelve O'Clock .....this isn't right and is concerned with something else... and can through you ...


reason for head gasket failure could have many underling causes


bad rad ...

water pump failure ...seals gone ...

or klinger put on without taking oil restrictor out of block ...

when klinger is swapped for original non klinger ...you are supposed to take out restrictor out of block ....

or gasket not put on properly ...mating faces of head and block not cleaned up enough ...or corrosion around the water passages not corrected with skim....or general rough job ...letting oil pour out of head onto new gasket when fitting

all the best.mark

 

hello some pics as promised

1 engine block covered in grime

2 block covered in grime

3 head gasket head side

4 head gasket block side

 

and some more,

1 exhaust side of head covered in oil and grime

2 timing belt side

3 valves to the right covered in oil

4 head

does anyone have any ideas as to where all this oily grime has come from and can any on tell if the hg has blown from the photos.

many thanks

in advance

graham

 

will take a good guess

head gasket wasn't done that long ago ...
maybe less than 20,000 miles

very rough job made of it ...the oil and grime was on the head possibly before from previous head gasket failure ...

the whole head should have been degreased ...and new rocker cover oil seals fitted and cam rails taken off and cleaned up and resealed with anaerobic sealent...also new oil seals on the end of the camshafts etc

old first rover non klinger rover head gasket were prone to leaks ...and seal set wasn't all that good either .

the head gasket set was a quick job with no clean up work for the faces under taken ...and oil present in the cylinder head was not cleaned off ...and allowed to drip all over the new gasket ..

the gasket has a special coating that seals it the first time the engine is run up to temperature ...

with oil everywhere on the mating faces ...this will not happen and it will fail slowly over a period of time ...then fail altogether .

the black staining is the oil that has been baked onto the faces of the head ...

if it had of been done properly you would have had gasket material stuck to the faces in many places to clean off with Stanley knife blade

possibly not torqued in the correct way as well

have a look down that oil hole to see if restrictor has been taken out ......

taking it out involves screwing a self tapper into it ...then pulling out with pliers.

make sure you have a good look at the water pump from underneath .....there are tell tail holes that give indication of leakage ....there will be lime scale around them and staining if the pump is failing.

the fins on the rad, if they crumble when you run your hand up and down them ..rad should be replaced .

buy only genuine klinger gasket ...and genuine seal kit for the top end ...

whist there replace valve stem seals and grind the vales in .

check head for warpage first .

and see my thread here that covers thew whole of the engine gearbox ..

http://forums.mg-rover.org/showthread.php?t=132776



all the best.mark

 

thanks mark
that was an excellent thread i had done an engine rebuild on my zafira but with that i knew what the problem was (smoke).

would a completely failed gasket cause the car not to start and low compression.

also you are right the water pump is faulty water leaking everywhere.

the only history i know of the car is that the last owner was driving and then it overheated and would not start afterwards.

i thought the exhaust manifold bolts were o so easy to undo, the head must have been off before.

so hopefully if i clean it all up get the head skimed and put a new hg on and do all the seals and clean the valves up as you said i should be up and running

unless the overheat has done some other damage? is there anything on the block that i should check before i put the head on.
i have read some other threads saying about checking the liners and taking pistons out etc also i have read that cleaning the matting faces with wet and dry paper can be used is this recommended.

many thanks

graham

 

I'd check the valves are sealing as they look a little off to me. Check with a brightlight shone into the inlet and look for light around the valves,or fill the inlet with water and see howlong it takes to come through. Otherwise everything looks sort of normal. Its had a camseal leak which is why there is oil all over the place.

The really late cars had klingers as standard.

 

thanks ETV mines an n reg if that makes adifference

thanks

graham

 

Someone has changed the headgasket then at some point.

I've seen it before though. People change the headgasket after the engine has cooked itself, only to find it won't then run. Its often down to the valve seats moving when they get really really hot meaning that the valves don't seal properly. Also when people re-do the timing it is very easy to get wrong,so the car won't then start. MGJohn has some excellent pics up on some posts as a guide.

 

mmmmmm N probably means that that klinger was installed from new .

but i see contradictions ...as you have a dizzy on the end of the camshaft .

which means that it didn't have the klinger.

or perhaps they carried on with the old style dizzy engines for a bit longer.

what's the mileage.

and if it did have a klinger ...maybe all faults are from overheating due to waterpump .

but like i said the older engines were not revised and leaked oil all over the show ....that's why you should buy proper rover seals gaskets ...or you may end up with another oil slick of an engine.


my car was N Feb 96 ...and had all the revisions.......and no oil leaks.

....as a matter of course i would defo replace all the core plugs in the block ...especilly the one behind the gearbox adaptor plate ...but that's a long job and one you probably wont like doing.

but if high mileage your clutch could be next to go .............means you then have access to that dreaded coreplug


all the best..mark

 

thanks guys you have been very helpful.

i can do anything when it comes to cars but i just want to do this one correctly and your advice as helped no end as this lump is a completely different kettle of fish compared to my 1992 rover 216 gti.

the mileage on my 220 coupe is around 75 thou.

also where can you suggest i buy all the seals and hg and anaerobic sealant from as i bought a head gasket set from a company on ebay for my zafira it looked the part but turned out to be crap so i had to do it again.

iam going to take off the cams tomorrow and water check the valves and see if they are seating properly.

would a total hgf cause it not to start and give low compression readings as suggested earlier in this thread.

but the block is my main concern as i dont want spend loads doing the head up and it turns out the block is knackered, as i asked earlier is there anything i should be looking for on the block in reguards to its condition.

i have heard people talking about liners and cracks and cleaning the face with wet and dry paper.
is it worth popping the pistons out and checking them?

more pics comming soon

once again thanks for your help

graham

 

You wont have any problems with the liners on the t-series ....the liner problem is with the k-series .

Seals and anaerobic sealant is from x-rover dealer ..

There is a seller called Shirley on ebay .....they do the proper klingers ...

Don't buy the rest of the gasket set off them ...just the head gasket on its own ..

because their other gaskets are crap.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ROVER-220-420...QitemZ110143318787QQihZ001QQcategoryZ10414QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


The only other cause for concern is the big end shells ..............these can wear out early, if previous owners have followed Rovers scheduled oil change of 12,000 miles..............far too long.

Have a look at my post showing big end shells at 68.000 miles ..in the link i gave you before.

If you take the pistons out .sump has to come off ........then a £35 sump gasket will be needed.

On some market tool stalls, you will find a device with a long Sharp blade on a handle ...they are used for getting paint off glass...use this on the head and block to clean up ....followed by scotch brite pads.

If the pistons are not out when you do this ....protect the bores from falling debries with ring of grease around the top of piston ...

and block up all holes...so that dust from cleaning don't go into engine .

and like i said core plugs will be past their best ......paying particular attention to one at the back of flywheel.

Bores are of good metal and don't wear ..

Piston rings can become gummed up after life of stop start driving ....car will use oil if they are left like this.

as regards the rest just read my post in the link farther up.....

all the best.mark

 

thanks again guys

it is going to take me a week or two to get all this sorted so ill keep you posted with pics too

thanks

graham

 

head skimmed and block cleaned

Hello everyone back again its taken me a while having a summer hoilday and getting the kids back to school etc.

I have got the head skimmed and the valve re cut and the seats done as the engineer said the the head was warped and the valve seats needed to be done.

my only concern is that the head has circular markings on it you can see them but they are not noticable to touch.
is this normal? as the last vauxhall head i had done came back with a mirror finish.

Take a look.

 

pictures

Here it is what do you think

 

engine bay

here is the engine bay cleaned up and with a new water pump fitted

 

camshaft carrier sealant

Hello i was advised by rovertech in ware that this sealant is highly recommended and is better than the anerobic sealant that rover sell.
It comes from Vauxhall and they use it for the same sort of thing it cost me £6.50 as i couldnt get any unipart ggc108 anywhere.

Has anyone ever used this?

 

the curcular markings are because its been fly cut on a milling machine ...very quickly ...or they have not used lube such as paraffin or wd40 or even better tapmatic fluid or blown away the swarf as it was machined

cant see how deep the marking are ...

by all means use the vauxhall stuff ...it looks better to me

the rover unipart stuff is like snot ..hard to use and inconsistant.

all the best.mark

 

Hello Mark

these markings are more visable to the eye than to touch the head feels smooth but you can tell that there is a circular pattern will this affect the H/G and engine when i put it back together.

thanks

graham

 

klinger wont have been standard on that

 

should be ok then ...

i read somewhere that a really shiny surface is not desired ..head could float .

all the best.mark