In some ways, even with the CityRover and the Rhino Rover, isn't it a shame that old Rajan didn't cough up a lot less cash than that and buy MGR when it was still trading

 

You know TATA really is a massive company. See: http://www.tata.com/0_about_us/group_profile.htm

I sincerely hope that they can safeguard the UK plants and relaunch Rover. In a way maybe JLR will be better off without Ford. I can't really see TATA motors taking the lead in developing new models but Gaydon and Whitley could be at the center of a very big and exciting new future for both the Indian and British car industry.

 

Well, anyone who isn't familar with TATA - You know the Indian company who just bought Corus for a few billion...

TATA Steel - part of the same group.

TATA could have bought up MGR with spare change if they wanted to.

 

Although the guys at MGR had a bit of a "love-hate" relationship with Tata/Telco (anyone remember Vishy?!!), the guys in Prod Dev at Pune were extremely hard-working and enthusiastic and v. proud of the success that Indica had in India (they were everywhere!).

They understood that CityRover didn't quite match MGR's expectations at launch in the UK but more-often-than-not were very open to the many improvements that were on the table in 2004. It has to be said though that MGR didn't really set out strong enough guidelines at the beginning of the project and were on the back-foot with demanding changes from Tata and MGR not supplying the budget!!

The Tata guys really respected the Rover brand and - I'm convinced - would fully harness the existing resource at Gaydon and Whitley. Also, Ratan Tata is a phenomenal businessman and car fan so I think the J&LR (+R!) business would really get the passion that it needs.

 

Hmm by European standards the City Rover is garbage do you want a company with that standard of product owning LandRover and Jag.

People complain about the x-type having a mundane chassis, imagine a new X-type with shared chassis with the Tata Something or other

 

Oh for crying out loud don't be ridiculous. Which Tata platform did you think Land Rover or Jaguar could possibly use? Tata only has ONE platform and neither Jaguar nor Land Rover offer anything in the budget sub-compact market segment.

Your comment is akin to suggesting that if a supermarket trolley company bought Jaguar/Land Rover we'd see future JLR products built around shopping trolleys.

Tata Automotive is a young and small division of a very large conglomerate. It's only car line-up was designed as a budget offering for Indian buyers in India, not as a global product.

 

I don't think that Ford would be willing to accept 1.5 billion for Jaguar and Land Rover, not unless the deal involved other 'factors' not strictly monetary in nature. If this deal goes through for this amount of money I'll be surprised.

 

Jag and LR are worth FAR FAR FAR more than 1.5 million dollars, that means each is valued at just 375 million pounds each...... i think, IMHO that thjey are worth at least triple that figure

 

Jaguar is almost worthless as it simply looses money

Land Rover is worth circa £2billion

 

Jaguar needs deep pockets from any buyer, it has not made any profits afaik since Ford bought the company. Its only by parcelling it up with L/R it has any commercial potential, however good the products might be. Not convinced TATA would appeal to ford, I beleive the closing date for expressions of interest is lunchtime today.

 

I dont get the animnosity toward the City Rover, if it had been marketed along the same lines as the Kia Picanto etc it would have been great! I've seen a couple and sat in them too though never driven them. There have been 5 I've spotted round and about Warrington.

 

There is animosity towards City Rover because it was THE worse car ever to wear a Rover badge ! I tested them an can honestly say they were bad, apart from the interior space which was surprisingly good.

 

Clearly the CityRover (nee Indica) is an excellent vehicle for the Indian market. There a millions of them there. It has provided the chance to own and drive a car to millions who wouldn't otherwise be able to.

There is a also market for luxury cars in India. Mercedes Benz's and BMW's are made there as well as in Germany and many other places. Those Indians should all be driving around in Jaguars!

 

I think TATA would use the Rover brand for the same reasons that SAIC wanted it. They would get a globally recognised brand which they could plug through Land Rover dealers.

 

it might be a good idea if JLR bought by Tata, then the Indian won't pack the factory and ship to India since there is no market in India. and there will be a health amount of cash inject into JLR.

but the Rover will definitely be dead. can not image Tata suddenly develops a range of models competitive for Rover.( even with the help of JLR). and NAC with SAIC hold the IPR of 25,45,75 and TF.

 

it might be a good idea if JLR bought by Tata, then the Indian won't pack the factory and ship to India since there is no market in India. and there will be a health amount of cash inject into JLR.

but the Rover will definitely be dead. can not image Tata suddenly develops a range of models competitive for Rover.( even with the help of JLR). and NAC with SAIC hold the IPR of 25,45,75 and TF.

Gaydon has the resource to develop Rover models especially following the peak of development activity up to the launch of L319 (Disco), L320 (Range Sport) and soon X250 (XF) . The majority of the staff, prior to 2000, worked on Rover, MINI, MGF and Land Rover and managed to do most of the development work for those brands with the occasional help from RDS, MSX and BMW FIZ so it is possible for them to do Rover again with some "flexing". An enlarged TELCO (Tata's auto wing) / J&LR could have the leadership of design and prod dev at Gaydon/Whitley with more back-office stuff done in Pune.

 

As a budget sub-compact car for the Indian market the Indica is a winner and rightly does very well. But it's a case of horses for courses and the Indica was so far from being up to the task of being a sub-compact car for middle Europe it's not funny. A rebadged Lada would been more suitable.

 

I can't see TATA buying Jaguar or Land-Rover.

Yes TATA is a large company but they seriously stretched themselves to buy Corus.

 

True, but if I was a venture capitalist I might be interested in them as a partner with long term goals and buying out the others.

 

This could also be applied to other parties too. Just because no major auto manufacturers are interested - at least publically - doesn't mean they aren't or won't be connected to any potential PE bidders. Ford will surely prefer to sell to a PE group (and they can be styled as an investment consortium to avoid negative publicity) than to the likes of Renault or VW.

Maybe there's a PE group out there who have already done a deal behind the scenes with SAIC if they succeed in getting JLR (this could mean half a decade of collaboration between the PE group and SAIC if there are conditions on the purchasers of JLR not to sell on within 5 years).

 

Good point!

However, I reckon that a JV with SAIC, might still be on the cards even if either Mahindra & Mahindra or Tata (as opposed to one of the three PE firms also rumoured to have submitted indicative bids) successfully bids for JLR.

 

CityRover XXL

don't really think the Indians are that interested, Jag and LR are way too big for the indian market

have a look at the CityRover XXL

India's first stretch limousine


http://www.globalautoindex.com/news.plt?no=1713

 

have a look at the CityRover XXL

India's first stretch limousine

What a monster! Unusual for a company to take a Suzuki Liana as an inspiration :shake:.
Interesting to see that it has a new 16v 101ps 1.4 engine and multilink rear suspension. Would have been nice to have seen those on the 'MG Cityrover'.

 

Ive followed TATA (or Telco as they are known in corporate circles) for some time and didnt realise they were so big, they have interests in hundreds of companies, and are major players in Asia and India. The only thing that puzzles me is:_ If they are so big, have some much money and resources to use, then how come they make such utter crap? have you seen their website, the only halfway decent product is the Indica, and even that is nowhere near European, Japanese or even Korean standards. The rest of their (automotive) product range consists of 1940s style trucks with unfathomable names and ancient powerplants, powered rickshaws and a few assorted other "contraptions". Anyone remember the hideous "Loadbeta" truck that was imported over here for a while with its 60 bhp engine and it's propensity to drop to bits, or the equally unimpressive Safari SUV that was as underpowered as it was badly made. I personally wouldnt be happy about placing the future of british car making in the hands of such a company, would you? or we could end up with the "New Jaguar SY127-30-457FY Multi purpose Extra-super-XL47 truck with a wonderful 1.6 OHV 45bhp engine with a 4 speed gearbox"....

God forbid!

Steve

 

Your post does chime with my original misgivings about the CR that a car aimed at a less descriminating market than Western Europe would need a lot of revision to work.

However, the first Japanese cars sold outside Japan fell apart as well and they learnt fast. I expect TATA is on the same learning curve and Tata himself is hardly as naive as you suggest. In fact the contrary. It's more likely that the X type will form the basis of cars in India to be sold as TATAs whilst Jag in turn develop cars for Europe. This would help defray the costs from day one.

 

Looks like TATA is becoming even more determined to buy JLR. According to this they may be getting into bed with Cerebus:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...atimes.com/Tata_looks_to_hitch_PE_ride_for_Jaguar_Rover/articleshow/2234355.cms

I hope this signals a new begining for the Rover brand.

 

I rest my case m'lud:smug_git:

 

I would venture to suggest that anyone who thinks there is a major market for large cars in India has never driven in India.....!

There is a small market in Delhi and Mumbai for prestigous large cars which never really go anywhere (Mercedes assemble some E-Class for the local market) but it is going to a primarily be a small car market for a long, long time.

 

There isn't a big market for large family cars, but there is a worthwhile niche market for foreign luxury cars given the rapidly growing number of recently rich upper middle class professionals with surplus cash there. With Tata's distribution network, that could be useful additional sales for Jaguar and Land Rover. A foreign badge will be the selling point - who wants an Indian made Mercedes. It isn't going to make up for falling US sales though.

 

some of their concept cars are rather lancia-ish and therefore roverish, ive always thought Lancia was the Italian version of Rover.

I actually hope if; any foreign company gets LR/J that TATA does as its the most likely to bring back Rover.

 

I actually hope if; any foreign company gets LR/J that TATA does as its the most likely to bring back Rover.

I'll agree with that ,simply because they've bought us and have continued to invest here ,oh alright , I want a staff discount on a Defender too.

Seriously though ,they're throwing quite a few millions in our direction just now ,no 'lift and shift' to India for them. Could be good for JLR.

 

Well I myself owned three CityRovers and over the years they have all proven to be great little cars and more reliable then my StreetWise, 05 reg 25 and 45.

I would have had another one by now but there is no new one's left but the MK2 was a great improvment over the MK1. We all know Rover priced the car wrong but can you blame them. I never had an quality issues with any of mine. I had two Sprite's and a Style.

I had one of the first 53 reg Sprites in the UK and it did have the sender unit problem and an iffy remote fob, Both sorted in weeks of me getting the car but should have been picked up by the companies PDI.

Then my 04 reg had the same issue with the sender unit and then got broken into and the stereo nicked. Now the break in was nothing to do with Rover but it took 19 weeks to get a new door glass and another 6 weeks to get a new silver painted dash section.

Then my last 05 reg Style with the leather was a lovely car. But the dye on the leather started to wear off after 12K. But got rid along with my 05 reg 25 and 45 due to the poor electrics in the 25/45.

I would be happy if it comes back to the UK it's a good car, priced incorrectly and is like a tardis inside.

 

my safari has proved reliable and parts are easier to get than Rover stuff!!!

However it is an old design ...new stuff from Tata is light years ahead ...check out some of their concept vehicles .

Ownership surveys are very positive

 

TATA Cars are complete load of KAK from what ive seen, including the CR , but at least the TATA stuff can only get better hopefully, from the option's that seem to be possibly available to JLR, TATA might well be the best one available in my view.

I think TATA would invest in JLR and develop it, and JLR could show TATA the standards required for the western market, you could see a joint development between TATA and LR to replace the Defender and perhaps some LR's being made in India.

You could also certainly see TATA potentially bringing back the Rover brand

 

I an intrigued about how some people believe Tata can bring back Rover production. Haven't the Chinese bought up all of Rover's equipment, factory, MG-Rover trademarks and intellectual property rights? Aren't the Chinese going to block production of Rovers by another company in favour of their own exports of Rovers to UK from China?

 

Whoever gets JLR will need to spend on Jaguars and Land rovers, so spreading the LR brand out to cover Rover seems fairly logical to me.

If they can't afford to make a mid-size Jaguar that could form the basis of a mid-size Rover (or develop a LR-based Daimler 4x4), what are they doing bothering with JLR in the first place?

 

Wouldn't make a lot of sense to anyone else though. Rover failed totally as a brand despite billions being spent on it. Look at KIA which is pushing over 3 Million sales this year and ask what's the value in brands? At the mass market level it doesn't matter. So why waste twoppence on a failed brand when you can start a new one? Or use Tata which is almost unknown outside India (except in industrial circles).

Rover will continue to be applied to variations of Land Rover and Range Rover but Rover itself is as dead as the Dodo.

 

Rover is history... BMW's failure to replace the 400 series with an effective medium sized car killed the company. The P4 just kept it going for as long as they could