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Cannot select 2nd gear when driving

3.8K views 8 replies 6 participants last post by  Windy  
#1 ·
hi all,

i am the owner of a 1998 rover 400, i replaced the existing gearbox approx a year and a half ago and put in a new clutch, since yeasterday i can no longer shift down from 3rd gear to 2nd gear while my car is in motion.... i can select any gear freely when stopped, i have to shift to 1st gear whilst in motion to step down to 2nd gear, i can move up the gears freely in motion but cannot select from 3rd to 2nd when shifting down.... absoloutly baffled me!!!! any advice would be greatly appreciated
 
#4 ·
Exactly what my 216 did. Could not change down into second. You could change down from 3rd to first, although you should slow down a lot before going into first.

The 3rd gear syncro had failed.
Cost ÂŁ160 to repair. I took the gearbox out myself and gave it to a gearbox repair specialist.

They said it was usually caused by too much vigorous driving/ vigorous gear changes.
 
#7 ·
kiwi216 said:
Could not change down into second.

The 3rd gear syncro had failed.
umm.. the synchros are only used when going into gear though.. are you sure you meant synchro on third had failed? i'd have expected the synchro on second to be failed

They said it was usually caused by too much vigorous driving/ vigorous gear changes.
it is.. i'll explain a little, in the hopes that more people will be nicer to their gearboxes

your gearbox is effectively a drive train formed of 2 cogs. there are many cogs ina gearbox, and changing gear selects different cogs to be pushed together.. the sizes of the cogs vary and this is what gives you gear ratios.

now, in a car the drivetrain is formed of the engine, linked to the clutch, linked to the gearbox, linked to the wheels. the clutch's job is to disconnect the engine from the box so that gears can be changed and the amount of driveing torque can be varied (setting off, for example)

you need to appreciate that 2 cogs whirring round need to be doing the same speed before you can push them together.. if they arent, then the teeth of one will whizz past quickly over the other one, generating a crunching sound and wearing the cogs out.
the synchro's job is to equalise the speed of the 2 cogs.

when you push a gearbox out of gear and into neutral, some parts of it, icluding bits that are linked up to the clutch (the friction plate) begin slowing down. the synchro has to speed these up too, so it's quite a bit of work; we arent jsut spinning one cog up to speed of another.. we have to spin an entire driveshaft and part of the clutch up to speed too. the cog that is attached to the wheels is turning constantly.. and youre going down the road at 30mph in fourth.. the engine, clutch side of the gearboxetc, is probably doing about 1500rpm
if you wanted to shift down into 3rd, well thats about 2200rpm to do 30mph in third.. so we press the clutch in, and shift into neutral, then hold the stick against 3rd gear. at this point, the synchros start spinning up the components on the clutch side of the gearbox, so that the cog for 3rd gear can mate properly with the cog that is fixed to the wheels. this means the friction plate for the clutch and associated gearing (was doing 1500, now slowing down cos we are in neutral) must be sped up to 2200 rpm to engage third. when the cogs are at speed, in goes third gear.. clunk

we can then release the clutch and drive along at 2200 rpm in third, doing 30mph

this takes time.. and like anything, you can force it hard into third, and provide more friction to the synchro so it can spin the components up quicker.. but like anything that wears out, it wears out faster if youre impatient with it.. wheelspins and clutch-burning drag races at the lights wear your tyres and clutch out, and the synchros are no different.

we didnt always have synchros.. in the old days, double-declutching was a technique used when shifting from a higher gear to a lower gear. instead of using the synchros (that we didnt have back then) to speed the clutch plate etc up to speed, you use the engine. the process is:
depress clutch, move from 4th to neutral, release clutch, rev engine up, pass necessary speed for next gear down (i.e. if we are going into 3rd, and out example requires 2200rpm to engage the cogs, we rev to 3000), depress clutch, hold gear stick against gear.. components in the gearbox will begin slowing.. when they reach 2200rpm, third gear will engage

driving was an art, back then :)

note that double declutching wasnt necessary when you were shifting up, if you could move fast enough to be holding the gear stick against the gear before the system had slowed..
so in our example, youre in 3rd, doing 30mph at 2200rpm. if you could depress the clutch, and get to 4th gear by the time the gearbox components had dropped to 1500 rpm.. in it would go

it is worth noting that if you learn this technique, then you dont necessarily have to have your synchros repaired; you can just double declutch every time you want to shift into second from a high gear.

examine your driving habits though; frequently people downshift too early, causing the gearbox unnecessary stress. if it wont go into gear, dont rive on it! the old time saying of "if it's hard, youre doing it wrong" is never more true than in this day and age, where the average motorsit has nearly no clue about the mechanical device he is piloting
 
#8 ·
Double de clutch did not work when mine had failed.

It was definately 3rd gear that failed.

I initially thought along the lines of your theory and could not understand why it was not working.
The problem is, while the mechanism was engaging properly on the up shift, it was not disengaging 3rd on the down shift and you would be effectively trying to go into 2 gears at once. 2nd gear syncro would get a lot of force on it, never equalise the speed and 2nd would appear to be locked out.

The fact that going into first works is due to the way the linkage causes 3rd to disengage properly, instead of going into second where it stays engaged.
 
#9 ·
cjard said:
the process is:
depress clutch, move from 4th to neutral, release clutch, rev engine up, pass necessary speed for next gear down (i.e. if we are going into 3rd, and out example requires 2200rpm to engage the cogs, we rev to 3000), depress clutch, hold gear stick against gear.. components in the gearbox will begin slowing.. when they reach 2200rpm, third gear will engage

driving was an art, back then :)
I have never really understood this double declutching - maybe you could explain a little further?

Following your instructions above:

First why should you depress the clutch to move from 4th to neutral - if you remove the power then it will slide smoothly out into neutral as you do so without needing to press the clutch, and you need to remove the power anyway. I just cant see the point in this first declutch.

Secondly is there a good reason for the second de-clutch, to put it into 3rd. Following your instructions, it would happily slot into 3rd without pressing the clutch. A small amount of skill is required on the accelerator to make it a smooth change but its not difficult.

As you said: "driving was an art back then".

:confused: