How is that more expensive than a k20 conversion?

Last time I looked a k20 conversion in a Elise was 6k

 

in a Elise it may be...

but i reckoned up last weekend and including the polybushes, suspension mods, all the bespoke stuff in my car. and the car it'self i've spent around £5200.00

the engine conversion it'self has cost about £1700 to this point, and all i've saved from the original car is the gear selector mech! :lol:

 

You've spent 5200?

You could have had a s2000 for that.

You have to remember yours is worthwhile because you've done most of it yourself, most people are going to need a drive in drive out option.

I know you love the k20, and for good reason. But it's not the route I'd take.

 

You've spent 5200?

You could have had a s2000 for that.

You have to remember yours is worthwhile because you've done most of it yourself, most people are going to need a drive in drive out option.

I know you live the k20, and for good reason. But it's not the route I'd take.

aye, I could have got a tatty mk1 S2000 thats totally boggo standard for that money

instead i've built a car people talk about and mags want to feature long before it has an MoT :lol:

I dont live the K20 mate, It's the best bang per Liter NASP 4 pot ever and is utterly stonking in the way that you can stick a turbo on it and have 500bhp without uprating anything else... but for a TF most of that is pointless... a B18 would have made more sence

im saying compare like for like... so you tune the rover K series yourself and you do an engine swap yourself... pure £££ what's it worth?

could you get 225 bhp from a Rover K for less/the same as I've spent on sticking a K20a2 in?

the lotus boys like this discussion lol

 

Not for 1700 pound. But at what point does it go from a Tf to a kit car?

 

when you change the shell and body panels

Where are all the L-series TFs at :naughty:

sold at auction to pay for their owners brain medication


if you were moronic enough to want a Derv sports car then you could pick a newer Derv engine with more torque/bhp and mpg and it would cost no more to fit :lol:

 

Where are all the L-series TFs at :naughty:

 

sold at auction to pay for their owners brain medication


if you were moronic enough to want a Derv sports car then you could pick a newer Derv engine with more torque/bhp and mpg and it would cost no more to fit :lol:

The L seris is such a heavy ancient lump of pig Iron its not worth fitting

This is why im thinking of fitting an M47R :bgrin:

The whole point to me of a diesel F is to get 55 toi the gallon 200bhp and a drivable tourer

as for the changing the lump thing its difficult at what point dies it stop being an MG ? rover group cars used Honda power for a good few years so is the K20 just doing that ?

We all know Adam hates the K with a passion

 

You should change the title to:
At what point does doing anything with any engine become pointless?

The answer is tuning is always pointless as most engines perform well from the factory and if you are not happy with the implementation of an engine in a given car buy a faster car.

It's a hobby and just as ludicrous spending money on tattoos, limited edition 'anything', Rolex watches or indeed anything that is not required for sustenance, shelter or basic functionality.

Personally i'd rather tune a k series than fit a different engine as the detail takes careful thought, and that's the same reason i'd rather tune a Ford 302 than just fit a 427, or a Fiat 1500 rather than an Uno Turbo unit in an X1/9. That's where the joy is for me - getting the most from whats there.

As long as the bills are paid and the wife is in the dark then the cost is irrelevant.

 

interesting really, different views and all against swaps...

Personally i'd rather tune a k series than fit a different engine as the detail takes careful thought, and that's the same reason i'd rather tune a Ford 302 than just fit a 427, or a Fiat 1500 rather than an Uno Turbo unit in an X1/9. That's where the joy is for me - getting the most from whats there.

As long as the bills are paid and the wife is in the dark then the cost is irrelevant.

Well the title wasn't about tuneing a car being a waste of money, it was where does it become pointless to spend more money tuneing an old engine, and instead spend the cash on a engine conversion that opens up a whole new realm of possibilities... the thread doens't apply to people who don't want to tune a car at all

Personally i'd rather tune a k series than fit a different engine as the detail takes careful thought, and that's the same reason i'd rather tune a Ford 302 than just fit a 427, or a Fiat 1500 rather than an Uno Turbo unit in an X1/9. That's where the joy is for me - getting the most from whats there.

As long as the bills are paid and the wife is in the dark then the cost is irrelevant.

thing is i could spend 2.5k on a turbo conversion and have 478bhp per tonne in a TF without removing a KG of weight from the car, so thats a full interior and spare wheels etc etc

thats more BHP per tonne than a Pagani Zonda C12S!!!

so the "it's a waste of money" argument is kind of out the window really lol because even with global economic downturn and the depreciation of low MPG cars, i somehow doubt a Zonda is ever going to drop into the £7/8k bracket :lol:

I'm of the opionion, if you want a faster car, buy a faster car.

I could build a k series car that would laugh at your TfR. But would it be as preety as yours? No. Would it be as comfortable as yours? No. But it would be faster.

Modifing cars is always a trade off. You gain in one area but lose in another.

would it really be faster though? short of a tubular space frame chassis with 1 Carbon fiber seat and no body work, would it have any hope in hell of being faster with a Rover K series? whats the most bhp anyone has every got from a Rover K I wonder? you might know mate

there are K24A2s in the USA running more than 1000bhp...

so that would give my TF 869.57... un-realistic as it wound no doubt snap the car... but the engine can do it once the conversion has been done :lol:



as you say i can still have a pretty, comfy car, and i can have it with all the luxuarys of an interior and a stereo and boot space etc... and with a cheap bolt on turbo i could have 100% reliability and a Power/weight ratio close to a Vayron :lol:







so back to the original question... at what point does a swap become worth it? is it when you want more mpg? when you want more reliability? more tuneing?

or a mix of the 3?

 

I'm of the opionion, if you want a faster car, buy a faster car.

I could build a k series car that would laugh at your TfR. But would it be as preety as yours? No. Would it be as comfortable as yours? No. But it would be faster.

Modifing cars is always a trade off. You gain in one area but lose in another.

 

It really depends what you want from the engine, if you have an aim then it never becomes pointless.

I'm putting ITB's on my road car and forging the internals simply because I want some reliability and something a bit different, costing a pretty penny and it's no way going to get big power (I don't even want big power) so many people will see that as pointless, to me it's the way forward.

In the MGB we could've stuck with a V8, but we took the view that tuning that wasn't the way to go (read 'pointless') as a similarly set-up K-series B can easily 'whoop' a V8 B on track. Again some people may see that as pointless but we saw it as something a bit different. Plus we know the K-series and actually quite like the way the power is delivered and revvy nature.

 

indeed... which is why i reckon i would have been better with a B16B or B18 conversion in my car...

id never have the option of silly horse power from a couple of ks worth of bolt on forced induction... but i'd still have more Power/reliability than the OEM TF engine, and i would have gained a much more rev-happy engine thats better to drive


so it's not just about bhp... there is a tipping point somewhere that favours a swap i'm curious as to where it is

 

160-170's is probably enough for our little cars.

With a bit of a remap, exhaust and induction on a 160 that should be enough.

Any more than that and you start to need expensive things like, proper brakes & tyres and it is definitely a diminishing returns situation.

I think what you should do is leave the engine alone, do a few little other mods and keep the rest of the wonga to keep the car working reliably and on the road.

 

160-170's is probably enough for our little cars.

With a bit of a remap, exhaust and induction on a 160 that should be enough

it's enough, but not to a tuner who always wants more (or as much as the driver and chassis can take... and you can uprate the driver and the chassis)

Remeber neil we are talking about proper petrolheads and tuners here... When i finish uni I will be starting to build my Skyline... the RB25-DET engine in it will take 450bhp without touching the bottom end

I will be fitting an LS3 V8 to the car because 450 will not be enough and i know the LS can take me to the magic 1000bhp when (not if, WHEN) I want to go there

Any more than that and you start to need expensive things like, proper brakes & tyres and it is definitely a diminishing returns situation.

the type of people who would be taking the K series to a high starte of tune... or engine swapping (so me, Jon norris, Gothanks, XR3-TF) will allready have the best brakes, tires and handleing mods anyway so thats an utter moot point

I think what you should do is leave the engine alone, do a few little other mods and keep the rest of the wonga to keep the car working reliably and on the road.

again a moot point, if your going to tune the engine or go for an engine swap then your leaving nothing alone...

in my case i've fit an engine so reliable that i don't need to worry about reliability from the engine till 550 bhp :dunno: and i'm only ever going to go that far with the car if i win the lotto!

as for keeping the car "on the road" if you have an engine swap (a tuned engine swap) then you have something thats experimental anyway, and if it brakes you fix it yourself.... if you have a heavily tuned K series engine then you expect it to brake and have another car


this thread isn't about a "normal" daily drive like your F mate, it's about tuneing a car.

 

Whats the power to weight ratio on your car now?

Book figure in a 135 is 1150 add that iron weight of a engine you have 1180?

What 220 hp?

Power to weight
186.4bhp per ton

Metro

700kg
160bhp
228.5bhp per ton

Just saying :dddc:

 

the engine is all aluminium mate when i took the engine out me and my brother lifted it and the gearbox onto a trolly and it weighed no more than a Rover K series + gearbox

The K20a2 is a smaller engine (physical dimentions) than a Rover K, the gearbox is a 6 speed so bigger, so it seems to even out

After I sort the back box and have it mapped by TDi North i expect to see the same figures as the Lotus guys so around 240 bhp


Metro weight i found online is at 840

http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/?car=8140

so

TF-R:

240 bhp
1150 kg
208.7 BHP Per tonne

Metro VVC
160 bhp
190.48 BHP Per Tonne


mind you figure the metro if running mems3 with a re-map and a good exhaust would get 175 then thats 208.33

so now we have 2 engine swapped cars... 1 with RWD and a K20A2 engine with tuneability thats up there with RB,JZ and LS engines... and a FWD metro with an engine that isn't far off needing forging as it sits


now stick the K20a2 or similar in the back of a metro and you could have some naughty fun (been done many times in minis)

but it wouldn't be a very good road car me thinks

 

In my opinion, tuning any car is just a point of how much money you've got to throw at it. Once you start having to spend hundreds of pounds fine tuning things to get 0.5 bhp from something, then it becomes pointless unless you've got the money to waste.

(Someone make an L-series tf for the giggles )

 

with new engines though you get allot more than .5 bhp from a few hundred quid Rover engines are all pretty old now... when you look at Duratec/ecoboost/V-TEC etc etc engines, they are all tuneable to silly figures easily

Easiest answer ever, when you buy it :tumbleweed:

fair point lol

To answer the thread.

Realibilty.

at 340bhp (highest a k has been iirc) your going to need regular rebuilds. And that has to factor in to the cost of things. I wouldn't go k20 either. My money would be on a 20v turbo from the vw family.

you see i really fancied the 5 pot Duratec engine from the ST in a TF... I'm sure Clive worked out it wont fit though

how come the 20v mate? I mentioned it earlier as it's a good engine i didn't think you liked Forced induction?

Mr Tf,
I have to add here that it's hard to discuss these things with you as you only ever have one agenda and a set of stock replies centered around Honda engines.

completely incorrect...

I like a good geeky petrol head discussion. I decided to start this conversation because i know in most communities engine swaps are a done thing and considered "normal" and "sensible" I knew on here loads of people would not like the idea... so it would be fun to start a conversation about it

i know the K20A2 is the best NASP transverse 4 pot ever built... but as i've said many times, now i've put one in a TF I know there are engines that would have been better

The 20V turbo has options and is great... I'd stick honda though because nobody does transverse 4 pots better really... at least on power/reliability

the 1.6 Toyota engine (of lotus and Prius fame) is excellant for tuneability/MPG and the VAG engines do Reliability with a small helping of tuneability (stock internals) and a good helping of MPG

but Honda engines provide what i want from a sports car... relitivly rubbish mpg, but all the tuneability and driveability you could want, in a package that will last hundreds of thousands of hard driven miles (because i thrash my cars)



give me Front engined/RWD and i will happily avoid honda engines in favour of Toyota, Nissan and Small Block V8s (in that order) followed by BMW, Ford V8s, Renault V6s (some Nissan DNA) and then eventually the F22C, but only then if in a light weight shell like a AE86


I dont have an agenda, i just want a discussion

 

Easiest answer ever, when you buy it :tumbleweed:

 

To answer the thread.

Realibilty.

at 340bhp (highest a k has been iirc) your going to need regular rebuilds. And that has to factor in to the cost of things. I wouldn't go k20 either. My money would be on a 20v turbo from the vw family.

 

Mr Tf,
I have to add here that it's hard to discuss these things with you as you only ever have one agenda and a set of stock replies centered around Honda engines.

 

We're did you get 190 from? The metro is 700kg?

And I'd need another 40bhp before forging?

And the k20 weighs more than the k series

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f25/toyota-rover-honda-k20-weights-555/

 

I googled "MG Metro weight" and found a page on the Metro Turbo?

Engine Car Weight (lbs)
K20A: RSX Type-R 275
Rover K Series: OG Elise 189

Is that US lbs or UK lbs? jw so i can convet into KG :lol: like i say we lifted it and it felt the same, admitidly the K20A2 had a stainless exhaust manifold and my old TF engine had a steel manifold on so thats a few KG there

its not much more at all...

EDIT: thats got to be US Lbs because it's on about the RSX Type R which iirc was only sold in the US? and it's a different engine to mine, its a K20A3 i think not a A2... but i don't know as much about honda engines that aren't mine as i should

Adam how on earth this is going to be more expensive than an engine swap?

A good Honda or Vag engine & gearbox will be circa 3k to buy!!

And you still need to do the conversion, new subframe, new drive shafts etc etc....

Engine wise I am plannig to spend 2-3 k!

not necessarily more, but close... i saved allot on mine because of how i did things

you could comfitably pick up a crashed Type R (early EP3) for £2500... by the time you brake what you don't need and sell everything you dont need from you TF I'd expect a conversion would cost no more than 4k and thats being a bit pessamistic as i've done the entire car (inc the supension/brakes and buying the car etc) for £5200/5500?, I came out ahead because of the K-Pro but lost money on some of the botched parts... so swings and round abouts Cash wise on mine

but remember I did have to spend thousands of hours on reaserch on my car as well... so it's much harder... and i had to learn all sorts of new skills, but pure cash wise, there isn't much in it

 

I've just being reading this thread (http://forums.mg-rover.org/showthread.php?p=5030496&posted=1#post5030496) of Sergis and after reading a thread on pistonheads I got thinking.

Looking at what he is going to spend for 180 bhp... at what point is Tuneing the Rover K series pointless as far as money is concerned?



thats what is on a wish list of anyone with a 160VVC who wants to get as much as he/she can from the engine without going at the engine internals

A quick add up from me there shows that thats more expensive than putting in a Honda K series engine which is 200bhp to start with and 225 with a decent exhaust and K-Pro (ECU)


so at what point is it worth switching engines?


edit: this is a fav topic on MR2 and Lotus forums too... will be interesting to see how opinion differs in a TF

Adam how on earth this is going to be more expensive than an engine swap?

A good Honda or Vag engine & gearbox will be circa 3k to buy!!

And you still need to do the conversion, new subframe, new drive shafts etc etc....

Engine wise I am plannig to spend 2-3 k!

 

Adam, stop biting, your getting wound up and the police will be along shortly :emps:

 

I'm having a fair bit of fun mate lol I don't like the idea of being told i have an agenda about honda engines lol, I like honda engines because they are better than Rover ones, but thats what happens with an extra decade or 2 of advancment in tech and of course the added investment. Had rover not folded im sure there would be better Rover 4 pots by now, so it's not like im dissing Rover engines when i say i like honda stuff... thats like saying the Eurofighter is dissing the spitfire because it's better :lol:

I'd go with the 20v because the conversion would be far cheaper. It's a arguable point that the k20 is a better engine. In standard tune it isn't that much better than a rover k. Power to weight wise.

If your going all out. It's only the k20 and the 20v that could do it.

the K20 can be tuned much further than the 20v on stock internals though? mind you the 20v is going to be lighter i should think and has the benafit of allready being boosted

how come your reckon it'd be easier?... i've never worked on a 20v

Well I would love to stick a 1.8T in my TF. But there is other reasons why I decided to tune the stock K series:

-My TF is my only car so an engine swap will require another car to move around (You have your own experience in that matter) as no swap is done in a week.

-If I swap the engine I will be rebuilding the whole car as for example Dieseldestroyer or yourself. That takes a lot of time.

-All I plan is to get all the juice from the Rover K series engine. That doesn't stop me to use the car most of the time and have a weekend to fit the exhaust for example and be driving the car to work on monday.

-And as I stated before with 3k you just buy the engine but you still need another 3-5k in parts and labour to fit in the car if you are not doing it yourself. (And I don't have that kind of skill)

So your answer to my original Question is conviniance and the cost of fitting as you can't do it yourself?

so if you had another car as good as your TF to drive around in, then you would do it if there was no fitting charges?


thats what the point of this thread was ment to be - at what point would you do it or not do it...


though i love this geeky conversation about engines we have going on :wooman:

 

I'd go with the 20v because the conversion would be far cheaper. It's a arguable point that the k20 is a better engine. In standard tune it isn't that much better than a rover k. Power to weight wise.

If your going all out. It's only the k20 and the 20v that could do it.

Edit: forgot about the 5pot Volvo lump that you mentioned. Some lads are getting huge amounts of power out if them :yikes:

 

Well I would love to stick a 1.8T in my TF. But there is other reasons why I decided to tune the stock K series:

-My TF is my only car so an engine swap will require another car to move around (You have your own experience in that matter) as no swap is done in a week.

-If I swap the engine I will be rebuilding the whole car as for example Dieseldestroyer or yourself. That takes a lot of time.

-All I plan is to get all the juice from the Rover K series engine. That doesn't stop me to use the car most of the time and have a weekend to fit the exhaust for example and be driving the car to work on monday.

-And as I stated before with 3k you just buy the engine but you still need another 3-5k in parts and labour to fit in the car if you are not doing it yourself. (And I don't have that kind of skill)

 

In fairness Adam, yes you've spent a fortune. But can you really put a price on what you've learnt along the way?

Mines not a mg metro. Mines a rover 100

 

ahh... are they really 700kg? if so one day i might have to put my Rear TF frame in the front of a metro! can you imagine how epic that would be for a Drag car? 700kg and 550bhp? :yikes:

I don't think i've spent that much mate, for what I've got... it's still only the price of a 3 year old fiesta

 

You can buy an adaptor plate from Reyland that bolts the engine to a pg1

No custom drive shafts no custom mounts.

The forged internals isnt a issue. We are talking proper hp here. The k20 will only go to what 500? We're talking above and behond that! Both will need new internals

 

EDIT: keeping the PG1 might be handy but surly the downsides outweight the upsides?

think about it... keep the original gearbox and you have a stronger box with 6 speeds... custom shafts are only £100 a pop and your only saving yourself 1 engine mount really aren't you?

the K20 will go to 550 on standard internals and over 1000 with Forged internals

whats the 20v do on stock internals and forged internals?

Also known as the Volvo Modular Engine or White engine at the Goteborg factory. Made in Skovde Sweden.

Yeah I would like to have one of those fitted too, but what an effort it would be!

Best engine I have come across in Sweden was this...

The 4.4 V8 as fitted in the Noble m600

i want that V8 in my skyline, but the turbos are in the wrong place

im going for a LS engine but with the US spec Turbo upgrade from the camero... the turbo sits at the back of the car under the boot

the downside is it's slightly laggier from the long FMIC pipe work but the reduced intake temps from an engine bay with no Snails mean you can run a I/C with fewer cores so you again back some of the lag

which is a moot point as it's a drift car anyway so your allways on the power unless clutch kicking in which case you can feather off anyway to maintain boost

in theory it should work!

 

One lad on mp is putting a B series into one :yikes:

Ralph has a rover v8 in the back of his :err:

 

B series as in the Honda B16/18? or BL B series?

the Rover V8 in the back must be mental but if your going to go v8 then the Rover engine is a true dinosoar! lol pick anything recent and it's going to have twice the BHP

on the up side the rover V8 is so cheap now it's mad

 

Honda b, can't remember if it's a 16 or 18

I've just been watching a mk4 golf with 1200hp on you tube :err:

 

mad! lol thats about what the US guys are getting... one guy hit 1400bhp with meth, water injection, nitros and CO2 on the FMIC

but it only lasted a few runs lol

see if i can find links...

whats the 20V capable of on stock internals? just i was talking to a gold owner (mk iV) at york raceway after i did him in the rover

he was deverstated as he'd spent £2.5k on getting more power from his 20v and a £600 rover T series destroyed him :lol:

i thought it might be down to weight but he said he needed a forge engine for more bhp... he was running a TT turbo, stand alone managment, downpipe, exhaust and bigger injectors i think

 

I've no idea :lol:

The t series is a bloody good engine though! Think Martin was getting 800bhp from his at one point

 

is he the guy with the Drag ZR? it kept eating gearboxs didnt it?

i dont mind the T as a drop in and go conversion to a bubble but they are a pain in the arse :lol: both of mine have used more oil than petrol (especially the first one)

bang for buck you can't loose for a hot hatch mind lol my Rover 25 turbo has been a hoot... i wouldn't bother tuneing one though

 

At what point does tuning the K series (Rover) become pointless?

AT THE BEGINNING:rofl:

 

Well I dunno, You can easily make the K series more fun

I've said a few times if i was to do my project again I'd of done a 1.6 VVC with a de-cat, my home made back box and a re-map

would have cost sod all, done loads of MPGs and been really fun to drive

i would have cared if it didnt even get 135 bhp

more to engine tuneing than bhp isnt there?

 

Adam I cant believe you have spent 5200, in fact more when you add the cost of the original car.
What was the price of the original donor then we get the complete price all in.

I would have to say that personally, if we said the donor car cost 1500 quid plus your 5200 so £6700

I would instead spend 7k on a porsche 968 or a Honda s2000 and save myself all the hassle, sore backs and grazed knuckles.

But like i said thats me personally, not taking owt away from what you have achieved.

 

Adam I cant believe you have spent 5200, in fact more when you add the cost of the original car.
What was the price of the original donor then we get the complete price all in

the £5200 (maybe £5300 by the time i finish some niggles) is the TOTAL cost mate... thats the Polybushes, other running gear, engine mounts, the car it'self, the lot

thats stupidly cheap for what i have got out of it

I've already been offered 12k for the car the day it has an MoT

I would instead spend 7k on a porsche 968 or a Honda s2000

Thats the difference mate, a Tuner (like me) would never be seen dead in a 968 and a S2000 for what i've spent would be a older car than my TF (2000, my TF is an 04). It would have the F20C and not the F22C engine in it... so it would be pointless (from a tuning standpoint)

if i wanted one with the F22C i'd need to spend 7 grand (maybe more) and i'd have a car with over 100,000 miles on the clock... so poor paint/interior...

and at that point i'd have a standard car

for me cars are about modification and being in the tuned car world... to be noticed with a S2000 id need to spend at least 10k on it thats a whopping £17k!. I've been noticed with a TF at less than 6k

Remember as a Student nurse i only earn £560 a month, £17 is just way out of what i could ever hope for right now

save myself all the hassle, sore backs and grazed knuckles.

thats the fun bit... and you will have the hassle, sore backs and grazed knuckles by tuneing a K series engine (which is what the thread is about - tuned K series Vs engine swap and at what point you decide a swap is the way to go)