I have a steptronic and the box was rebuilt at approx 40 thousand miles, costing around £1600, just before I aquired the car, one of the reasons I purchased this particular one. (eeermm bit worried now)

If my information is correct, this box is used in the new (automatic) Minnie, dont think BMW would have used it if it was so unreliable, though I could be wrong about this.

Don't know where you are but mine was done by Automatic Transmissions Preston LTD 01772 259068 & 258117 Reciept says, Milage 39886 cost £1629.03 If your not anywhere near there then give them a ring and ask for there opinion.

Ian

 

Thanks for your reply, I also heard that the new mini uses this box can anyone confirm this as I can get a wider opinion with them being so popular, it would need to be the exact same box though I guess.
I just can't see how any car manufacturer would be able to get away with fitting a gearbox which is incapable of reaching 50'000 miles, part of the garages reason for not taking responsibility is that these boxes are known for failure, I need to disprove that but then as mine only made 6350 odd miles if they're saying that is acceptable then shouldn't they have warned me when I purchased it, I don't accept that amount is a reasonable amount for a £2500 gear box (fitting included) to complete before breaking down and likely without a possible repair according to the garage!

 

Yes it was the same electronic control cvt in the MINI for a few yeArs but not used now.

Check what oil they put in the new gearbox. If it wasn't Esso/mobil ezl 799 then they may have caused the box to fail.

In any event just take them to the smallclaims court.....the judge will love it!

 

My thoughts exactly about how the courts would view this though naturally I still get worried with the thought of costs should it back fire, I'm sure i'm in the right but I never took a case to court and so am unsure of the costs, we have only spoke to Trading standards, Citizens advice and a legal helpline provided through my Gf's work who have a good reputation but no solicitor of our own yet.

Regards to the oil I wouldn't know where to start with getting that tested, yet it has been suggested continually and they did buy some in special because we was waiting on it, they charged us £5 for it, Is it easiest to syphon the oil or to drain from underneath? any ideas how easy it would be to get it tested and if that would be expensive, problem is we'd need some of the original esso oil which i'm pretty sure is hard to get in small quantities, guess if I imagine i'm spending the garages money which i'll receive back when we win then anythings doable as of course we are keeping costs!

Also I did contact ZR, think it was there main email address but I received no reply, I think they have a branch in Nottingham I could try to call, though would they be willing to send a ltter to me stating that they would expect their box to last x amount of years/time as ultimately the claim will likely land back on the main suppliers doorstep which is likely them.

I believe the company who supplied the garage, a local car dealer said they got it from x-part, they did say or somewhere else but i'm not sure as it was some time ago. Maybe it would be worth calling them again?

Thanks for your advice and CVT comparisons

 

Why not look at the warranty that MG-R group originaly gave to the car,my manual MGF was 1st year unlimited mileage and then the 2nd and 3rd years extended warranty which covered the car until 60,000 miles and this covered any component which prevents the vehicle being driven on the road.
In my service book it does not have any exception for the steptronic.

If a few garages get these cars to repair they can only refer to they own knowledge which is very limited, MG-R group must have tested these cars and found they were suitable to give the above warranty.

 

I had mine replaced at 75000 miles.
It was making a whine on part throttle so it went in to have the oil changed and investigation on what the whine was. They found bits of the bands in the filter.

It drove fine but would have failed at some point. A pity the whine is slowly starting to come back as I love the CVT in mine. I will probably get rid before it gets too loud, I don't want to have to have the box out again.

Given that Rover were offering a 3 year warranty I would expect at least 3yrs from a new box. As your box only lasted 6000 miles you have every reason to be cheesed off it only lasted this long. You have my every sympathy! I would second the opinion that the wrong oil was used.

I was told these are the importers of the CVT box so you could get in touch and they may be able to help you:
http://www.punchpowertrain.com/web/powertrainindex.asp?customer=15&language=E&ut=L

 

ZF make a lot of automatic transmissions for many different vehicles. I am sure that they would tell you that they are bullet proof and should last in excess of 100,000 miles without any trouble. Have you or your solicitor contacted them yet? Your gararge will take no notice of us as end users saying that 6000 miles is ridiculous, but if ZF can give you this assurance then this will hold much more weight. Get it in writing. I would start with a local ZF dealer in the UK if you can find one, or go direct to the main factory.

 

I would take a good close look at the oil and ask for proof from the garage that they did indeed use the correct oil, ALL other oils will stuff the gear box up as far as I can make out.

 

I have the ZF CVT in my 200, and at 63000 miles it is still going. No receipts previous for a change of box, but as long as oil changes are kept on top of then it should keep going for thousands more miles.

 

I've just bought 20 litres of EZL 799 from a BMW parts specialist at about £7.60/litre. It was the only place I could get it at a reasonable cost and 20 litres will last me a good few years!

My TF has only done 16k miles, is now 6 years old and has never had the oil changed as far as I can tell so it's about time.

 

Does anyone know roughly how much oil a new gearbox would take, that'll help determine whether £5 is too cheap but if Tipper bought some for £7.60/litre then maybe it's possible to buy just what they needed for a fiver?

We had decided that sending the oil away to be analysed maybe a good idea due to the well known fact that using the wrong oil will damage the gear box, I guess we'd need to send some of the actual esso stuff along so they could compare, where could I buy a small amount, or one container?

When I say we had decided we are still planning to do so but the thing that has cast doubt on this is the fact the garage had the car back in after it failed, then the dispute with the warranty started and we took it away from them but there was fresh oil splattered around the engine area, If I run a garage and something so expensive failed I'd look up the possible causes and upon reading about the oil there is the possibility it's been changed for the correct stuff, the only other explanation is that during their tests they've topped the oil up.

My Gf's dad originally checked the oil when it first broke down and it was at the right level, he then checked it when it had been sat idle and the level had gone up which made us believe it had been topped up or changed however we were then told it must be running to get the correct reading but we can't select gears so it's hard to tell if they've changed anything.

I think we will send a sample away if we can find somewhere to do it for us, I'm not sure how good these tests are but if they pick up anything even a trace of alternative oil then that would be good enough I guess?

Thanks for your help Guys

 

5.5 litres for a dry fill i think.

 

Wow, can anyone verify that? shows how much I know was thinking 1 or 2 litres

So it should cost in excess of £40 to fill according to Tippers quote of 7.60/litre.

Am I getting that wrong, just that I don't see how they could fill it and only charge us £5, also we was waiting on the oil as they said they had to order some in which did give us the impression it was the right stuff but these prices don't add up, maybe the oil test is the only way forward.

If anybody knows where I can buy a small amount of esso EZL 799 please let me know - Thanks

 

The latest letter from the garage states how they gave us a 12 month warranty and that trading standards have advised them that is all that mattes.

Which I don't believe!

I sent them a pretty detailed letter explaining how our statutory rights come into force beyond their warranty and that the be all and end all of this case will come down to whether any reasonable person believes 6350 miles is an acceptable amount of mileage for a brand new gear box costing £2500 inc fitting to cover before failing (apparently beyond repair).

From the help and advice I have had over the internet the people who have commented on that mileage have been 100% in my favour, why would the courts see it differently?

Trading standards advised me to seek an independent specialist to analyse the gear box, they wanted both myself and the garage to agree on this person as the courts prefer this so that there can be no dispute over the info when it gets to them, however the garage have point blank refused to give me the permission to have this person check it over, sorry not refused but ignored two letters, the second one insisting I need that to move forward, I asked for their permission for him to open the box up and run whatever tests they deem necessary on it also but they won't acknowledge my request, merely stating that if we wish to have any tests done that is our prerogative.
You see I believe that because the box has failed and we want a full refund or replacement that the box is still their property, I don't want to risk them saying the guy I had take a look at it may have broke it, so my next step is to seek advice on this matter but still, I have followed Trading standards advice and even asked for the garage to cover half the costs of the tests as they told me too, the garage not cooperating won't look good in the end as the courts are the ones that prefer a joint inspection to be agreed as far as I have been told.

keep your ideas and info coming, it's all appreciate

 

From the manual:
Refill with out oil cooler - 4.5 litre
Fill from dry with out oil cooler - 4.9 litre

When I had my oil changed I gave them 5 one litre bottles from rimmers, about £9 each last year.

I still recon they used the wrong oil, £5 is way too cheap for a complete refill.

 

Thanks Turbostream, why only £5, I mean is that even reasonable for a standard oil fill? could they have lost the price in the receipt somewhere, I mean the total job was £2500 but still surely they should give us the right costs?

 

£5 would seem resonable as a cost item on and invoice. The garage would order a big drum of the stuff if they do a number of fluid changes in a year (ATF) .

 

i think an oil test is the way forward...............

they might have charged you a smaller amount to fill with oil since they charged so much on labour!? The price is correct by the way the oil is VERY expensive.

If you don't mind me saying i think they are in the clean if there is nothing to show that the error was in fitting the gearbox - there is not much they can do if an item off the production line is faulty somehow.............if this is the case the next step is to approach the manufacturers..............

strictly speaking you were out of the guarantee period but since it was so close they could have been more lenient and at least compensated you in one form or another like offer a free service (not that you would take it, lol) which is more of an offering for a good working relationship rather than a fix of the issue.

tell the garage that you intend to get off their doorstep if the gearbox looks like it was at fault and not a result of their work! it could help!

 

This post is largely how I see things now but it is as usual a little long but if you have the time then as always I appreciate your views



It's the way the law works Supasoaker, the fault may well have been with the gear box itself but I can only get compensation from the people who sold me it, I have told them that if that is the case then they can do the same from their supplier and so on up until the manufacturer is hit, because there is a chain of three or four as far as i'm aware.

As I said earlier "the be all and end all of this case will come down to whether any reasonable person believes 6350 miles is an acceptable amount of mileage for a brand new gear box costing £2500 inc fitting to cover before failing (apparently beyond repair)" if you read the sales of goods act it says

Goods are of ‘Satisfactory quality’ if they reach the standard a reasonable person would expect taking into account the price and any description.
- The law says that goods that are of satisfactory quality are free from minor defects, have good appearance and finish and are durable, safe and fit for all the purposes for which such goods are commonly supplied.

Thats only a small part of the legislation but it's the key to this case and it's part of your statutory rights which are always there regardless of a warranty made up by the seller, if you are a reasonable person then you are qualified to answer this question -
Do you believe that a gear box costing £2500 should last longer than 6350 miles?"
Simple enough to answer and so far I've had 100% in my favour, people have said it should last 100,000 miles or even the lifetime of the car, afterall it's a major component which is built to be extremely durable for it's purpose, in fact I'd go one step further and counter against the garages poor defence which is "these boxes are well known to be unreliable" and i'd say most gear boxes are prone to abuse and user error whereas this particular model is strictly governed by computer even when in sports mode which we rarely used.
Somebody said that BMW originally designed these boxes, is that true? I know they used them in the mini for a while.

The thing is if any gear box had only made it to, say 35,000 miles most people would feel the box had let them down and 'died' before it's time, ours did less than 5 times that in what someone described as "not even a stop gap for a service", If for instance the break pads had gone in a shorter than usual amount of time then I may have bought a different type next time, but with the gear box I don't have that option nor can I afford the luxury!

If I did a survey of 100 people in any town centre i'd be extremely surprised to get less than 90 in my favour, does anybody disagree with that?
(Quoted as a question from myself)

this is the legal side as I have been advised and how I now see it based on that advice and the legislation above.

I thought they were holding out to hope we'd accept one of two poor offers, they offered to buy the car in it's current state (huge loss to us) or fit a new gearbox (we pay for) for free, they may have charged us £500 for fitting but fitting is only costing them man hours, which can't be more than £200 can it! (huge loss to us, a common theme from their side), I just can't understand them wanting to go to court and thought they were bluffing but now communications are pretty much down and they won't agree to pay half the costs towards the gear box diagnostic or agree on the well known local expert that I had chosen nor provide an alternative but this was on Trading Standards advice and they told me the courts prefer that we agree on this so that there can be no dispute with the info when it comes to them, by not co-operating with common procedure I can't see how they are doing themselves any favors!

Finally (at last), going back to Supasoakers post I think rather than getting off their doorstep I'm gonna be camping out and anyone on here is welcome to join me!, we can chain ourselves to the treeees man :discostu:

Seriously though I can't see how the court would view it differently to everybody else and the support on this site in particular and some other sources has been overwhelmingly in our favour and I thank you all for your continued input, the oil test is up next and then we'll talk to a solicitor properly because the next obstacle (in my mind) is getting that box opened and looked at to determine why it failed, I'm not sure if i'm right but I still see that box as their responsibility so can I get someone to open it up without their say so, I mean needs must right?, It'll cost a fair bit too which means we'll be claiming damages too, I mean they have cost us the use of our only car for a few months and now we have had to buy a second!, if the courts rule in our favour will they take that into account? I'd hope so as we couldn't really afford to do that but quite simply we needed transport for work amongst other things.
The case stalls without their cooperation but something that always reassures me is the fact that even without a reason for failure, it's obvious that the gear box failed either because it was faulty when it was fitted or the only alternative I can think of is that the car may have had a problem which caused it to fail, given that they examined the car and advised us that we needed a new gear box then as they're qualified we took that advice and they should have spotted any problems that may have existed.

The case goes on.....slooowly, but once our tests are complete then there will be more, any thoughts?

 

Granty

Punch Powertrain who took over the design and manufacture from ZF Belgium still exist and their after sales manager emailed me a while back following my request for info about the correct fluid for the gearbox.

His email is below and his contact details are listed at the end of the email.

I'm sure he would be pleased to assist in checking out this 'new' gearbox and the oil therein! I had a couple of emails and he seemed very helpful.

I suggest you email him with your problems and see what he can do to advise/analyse/arbitrate, etc.

"ESSO EZL799 IS THE ONLY SUITABLE OIL FOR OUR CVT TRANSMISSIONS.

The use of any other oil will cause damages to the transmission.
Especially the clutch and the variator are very sensitive for the oil type.

The Esso EZL799 has special additives to control the friction between the metal push belt and the conical sheaves.

The easiest way to get the proper oil is to go to a BMW-MINI dealer and to ask for the ESSO EZL799 used in the MINI CVT vehicles.

I hope this information is useful for you and if you have any further question please feel free to contact me.

Kind regards

Benoit Lenaerts
Manager After Sales & Services | Punch Powertrain NV

Punch Powertrain NV | *Schurhovenveld 4 125 | BE-3800 Sint-Truiden

( Tel. : +32 (0)473 24 89 64 ( Mobile )
( Tel. : +32 (0)11 67 92 53
- E-Mail: benoit.lenaerts@punchpowertrain.com "

Sorry don't know why this is in funny colours!:greeny:

Tipper

 

Rimmers are showing stock
http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-XPT001002OF

If you were to beg at a mini dealer they may sell you a small amount for testing purposes.

 

Having run a business.. and having had bad work done by a garage myself, I have been to court 4 times now... and Im sad to say the court does not always seem fair and reasonable.

Have the garage offered solutions? yes (although not to your liking) This will go in their favour.

Even if the gearbox problem is their fault I doubt the court would see your need to purchase a second car as the garages fault.

In cases like this there is no justice and everyone ends up out of pocket.

I had a vw diesel engine transplanted into a suzuki samurai and it did a total distance of............................ 53 miles

Neither the garage that fitted it, nor the company that sold the 'conversion kit' were held responsible.

I wish you luck with this and feel for you.. but sadly think the outcome will be very unjust.. I do hope you prove me wrong.

Allan

 

Just a thought.. as with any court case,

Keep a detailed file of any e mails, letters, reciepts, invoices etc

Keep an accurate log of telephone conversations including time, date and who you spoke to

You can never be too prepared for court

Personally id only use a solicitor that is recommended to you by someone who has had personal experience with them, because not all of them are any good and even if they think you will loose, they still get paid..

I really hope you get it sorted without too much more expense

 

Dieseldestroyer thanks for the input but I've had so many positives in this that i'm certain were doing the right thing, I understand maybe the courts don't always see things how others do but based on the money we have spent and the extremely poor performance of what is well known as a durable piece of equipment then I can't see how the courts will let us down on this.
I mean if they just accepted this kind of deal is right on a regular basis then nobody would have the confidence to part with their money.

I'm no mechanic but it's clear that somewhere and for some reason this box has failed, that can only come down to the box itself having an inherent fault at the time of purchase or the garage missing a problem with the car which may well have caused the last box to fail, they advised us to fit the brand new one when they or we could not find a second hand one, upon examination it was their job to determine why the last one failed, they said that we needed to get a new one fitted and we did that but for anybody to think this new one has had a full life is just so obviously wrong, it never just got half of its expected lifetime it barely even started it and I don't believe that any reasonable person would believe otherwise.

What they have offered is a pittance and when I asked how much they were prepared to offer us for the car and whether they meant in its current state or as it should be, they never answered so that can't be seen as an offer if they won't tell me what it is!
The other offer is to fit a new gearbox which we have to buy for free, something which i believe would cost them less than 10% of the old gearbox and less than 5% of our total costs if we have to buy another one, given that they are fault here then I can't accept that or anything close to that.
We haven't had even 10% out of what most people would expect a new gear box to last so the truth is yes they have made us an offer but an offer which nobody in their right mind could accept leaving us with only one option which we fully intend to follow through!

 

Im keeping my fingers crossed for you.. that you get the car sorted and the court plays fair and you end up with a result your happy with

Keep us updated please..

Allan

 

For an update on the crazy occurrences over the past few days see my new thread, It's aliiive

I have created a new thread to make sure we get as much info as possible as obviously I need to be sure that this matter is resolved

but for now it's a miracle.........It's Aliiive!!! oh and ??? and