Hi

First of all I would like to thank everyone for making this site such a great community, hopefully with time I can make my own contribution to it.

Anyway to my problem my connie se is acting up some what to say the least. It is only running on 3 cylinders, I put it in the garage and after paying them £100+VAT they told me that it had a faulty valve problem on the problem cylinder, he said he was 90% sure of this, although he did admit that he had come to this conclusion without removing the injector in the suspect cylinder. He told me that he had done a fuel drop test on the cylinder and it showed that the injector was fine along with disconnecting it. He also said he removed the manifold and could feel the difference in pressure on the faulty cylinder. I was also told that without the proper injector pully he was unable remove the injector without doing more damage.
Finally I was told that I would most likely need to have my cylinder head reconditioned.

Can anybody please tell me if all this information I have been given is correct, or is there any tests I can do my self to diagnose the problem?

Many Thanks for reading my post
Cheers
Helen

Hi,

As I read it, a fuel drop test, is a comparative test between injectors where there fired for a few pulses each, and fuel rail pressure measurements taken before and after firing to see if all the injectors are balanced in there flow rates. I don't think its possible to do a test like that on a common rail diesel, its a mechanical pump for a start... But i may be wrong
Does he mean the valve in the injector is knackered?
If he means in inlet or exhaust valve, a compression test or better still a leak down test would be more appropriate.

Maybe scan the report from the garage and post it up as a picture without the garages name on it, to let others more knowledgeable have a look.

I don't think anyone has reported leaking or burned out inlet or exhaust valves on here before....

I think it would be worth you phoning http://lynxdiesels.com/ in Wokingham and asking there advise.

AFC

 

Hi AFC

Thanks for your input on the problem, I haven't received the report yet but I will post it as soon as I receive it.
I believe he means the valves in the cylinder head, as he says my cylinder head probably needs replacing (90% sure).
Is it possible to detect a faulty injector without first removing the suspect injector, which I believe is a job in it's self without the correct pulley and why he did not attempt it.

Thanks again
Helen

 

Hmmmm, I think you should get a second opinion, just that's a bit rich to assume so much with "your" money.

He will struggle to get the cylinder head off if he cant remove the injectors first....

AFC

EDIT, I seriously wouldn't let him take the head off until hes 100% sure with evidence to back his thoughts, that there is a valve problem....

 

Welcome to the forum wonderwoman,

It's difficult to say exactly what this guy means and what tests he has actually done.

These common rail diesels are excellent to diagnose, as we have both electronic diagnosis systems and mechanical diagnosis systems whereby we can tell what's going on for both the mechanical & electrical systems on the car.

I would certainly look for a further opinion, as we have no history of the valves burning out on the BMW M47 engine, in fact it's so unlikely that wouldn't be worth considering. They run so much cooler than a petrol, a burnt valve just wouldn't happen.

Chances are there is a faulty injector or some other electrical gremlin.

Can't advise further, as I would need to see the car and run the appropriate tests.

A second opinion is a must, don't let this guy pull the head off yet!

Regards, Rob.

 

Thanks all for your advice, I couldn't understand why he was so sure it was the valves, maybe he saw pound signs in his eyes.
Is it possible to check injectors without first removing them and maybe swapping with a known good injector? My first thought was that it was the injector
I read some where that a somebody cleared a blocked injector with injector cleaner, has anybody done this any success doing this?. I would have imagined it would have to be very good stuff.
Will I cause any more damage to the engine running the car on 3 cylinders apart from the obvious bumpy ride?
Thanks again
Helen

 

i Bet that engine sounds lovely on 3 cylinders

:welcome:

I'm affraid I cant help out with your problem but no doubt someone here will be able to!

 

Hi Sorry I never got back to you, I have been getting really stressed out with the car. I tried running 'Diesel Purge' through the car. This stuff is highly recommended in America and does seem to work really well, but not on my car :sad3:

I am led to believe it is something much more serious and requires the engine to be stripped probably either a valve or number 2 piston.

I cannot make up my mind whether I should through more money at the car or cut my losses

wonderwoman

 

Hi Sorry I never got back to you, I have been getting really stressed out with the car. I tried running 'Diesel Purge' through the car. This stuff is highly recommended in America and does seem to work really well, but not on my car :sad3:

I am led to believe it is something much more serious and requires the engine to be stripped probably either a valve or number 2 piston.

I cannot make up my mind whether I should through more money at the car or cut my losses

wonderwoman

thats not so good WW , can i ask you who is dealing with the car . flyer.

 

What is the car's history? How long have you had it running well ?

Tip loss? Never heard that one before.
The injectors are a wee bit too robust to just 'lose' a tip into the engine.
If the garage has done a 'drop test' as they put it if the tip was missing it would certainly show up so be assured on that.

If a proper compression test has been done and found low compression on cylinder 3, thats pretty conclusive. Could be one of these:

1. injector loose or sealing washer leak or missing. (has been known!)
(This could lower compression considerably)
2. valve gear problems
3. Piston rings (unlikely on diesel)
4. Head gasket (very unlikely on diesel)

Helen, unless you are at all confident in car DIY there is limited advice we tekkies can give to save you money and get you sorted.

 

What is the car's history? How long have you had it running well ?

Tip loss? Never heard that one before.
The injectors are a wee bit too robust to just 'lose' a tip into the engine.
If the garage has done a 'drop test' as they put it if the tip was missing it would certainly show up so be assured on that.

If a proper compression test has been done and found low compression on cylinder 3, thats pretty conclusive. Could be one of these:

1. injector loose or sealing washer leak or missing. (has been known!)
(This could lower compression considerably)
2. valve gear problems
3. Piston rings (unlikely on diesel)
4. Head gasket (very unlikely on diesel)



Helen, unless you are at all confident in car DIY there is limited advice we tekkies can give to save you money and get you sorted.

Thanks for your analysis, it makes sense what you are saying

I certianly like to get my hands dirty messing around with my car I have bought a manual, I would certianly give anything ago. The garage who had my car certianly believes it was a valve problem.

I am contemplating taking the cylinder head off myself, although it would be a very interesting project to undertake it looks quite daunting, I like to give anything ago.
Cheers
helen

 

what a woman , in fact a wonderwoman !!!!! flyer.:s2h:

 

Helen,
to verify #3 cylinder is at fault remove the engine cover (3 bolts) and with the engine warm and running pull off and replace each injector plug in turn to see which plug has the least effect on running.
If it's #3 then you have verification that the compression test is probably true. Only takes ten minutes in all.

This will induce "injector open circuit" error codes in the ECU but that's not a problem going forward.

Then, before you even think of doing anything else, you would need to verify that the #3 injector is not loose (2 nuts) and the copper sealing washer on the tip is not damaged or missing (been known!).
That would certainly cause compression faults and misfire.
If the injector is loose, just tightening is worth trying but may not help since the copper washer will likely have been damaged by products of combustion.
We can help you with injector removal, and you shouldn't need a puller only if it is stuck in the head.
To help with this, while you are doing the injector plug test, pour WD40 or penetrating oil in to the injector wells until it pools.
While you are running the car in the next few days, this will ease its way down the wells and lubricate the injector shafts to ease removal.

Do the injector plug test first please and get back to us.

 

Also, and I hope this does not sound daft but a drop of water and washing up liquid around each injector will soon show a leak with a whole lot of lovely bubbles forming. You can be a mechanic and blow bubbles at the same time. :rocker:

 

replace number 3 injector , i bought one on ebay for £25 , loads of talk at the time that they all must be in balance yet my car ran like a sweetie after ,be warned these can be difficult to remove , you may however be lucky , they tend to rust in but side to side movement with a hammer and small wooden baton [ie old hammer shaft] worked for me , the longer you can ease lube into the injector the better , it took me 3 days of side to side to get mine out , flyer.:twak2:

 

At this time if you have eliminated injector 3 leaking, yet you have established that disabling injector 3 has least effect on idle, I would be tempted to accept that the compression test you had done is actually viable and that there is a mechanical problem on #3 causing the misfire.

You could have a second compression test done to be sure. Even in the Haynes manual it outlines the different kinds of compression test that can be done to identify the cause.

It could be something as simple as the hydraulic adjuster sticking. There are oil additives that you could try.

Do you have coolant disappearing or mayo on the filler cap?

 

Just to double confirm the tests Blackadder has explained, if when you run the engine, if its injecting fuel on the suspect cylinder, but not burning, or not burning well, you should be getting white smoke from the exhaust, if you then disconnect that injector, the white smoke should clear after a bit. That would be fairly conclusive that the injector works ok and the problem is a mechanical valve issue. (blackadder, please comment, in case i have misunderstood)
Also If you can remove the glow plug on the suspect cylinder and get a threaded fitting of some description M10x1mm pitch to screw into the hole and pressurise this with an airline or even your spare tyre (at a pinch) then remove the air intake hose from the EGR valve and also the exhaust gas connection from the valve, listening at either point for a hiss of air leaking will tell you which valve isn't closing properly. The cylinder needs to be at top dead center for this test to work so the valves are shut.
AFC

 

Hi All

thanks again for your continued time and assistance it is most appreciated.
I have now took the manifold off and have been trying to remove injector 3, I have filled it with release oil and it does appear to be moving from side to side a degree or so. Would you advice me to remove the studs to allow more movement? How would you recommend me leavering the injector up without cracking the plastic cover?
When the engine was running I can never remember seeing any white smoke and I drove the car for about 20 miles.
One thing I did notice when I removed the manifold was there was an awful lot build up on unit which connects the turbo pipe to the manifold, as if it was unburnt fuel, I don't know what it is but there is a lot of it.
There does'nt appear to be any coolant disappearing or changing colour although I am not entirely convinced the that my oil level is not rising. I did not change the oil so it could be that it was just overfilled.
Many Thanks

wonderwoman

 

Hi All

thanks again for your continued time and assistance it is most appreciated.
I have now took the manifold off and have been trying to remove injector 3, I have filled it with release oil and it does appear to be moving from side to side a degree or so. Would you advice me to remove the studs to allow more movement? How would you recommend me leavering the injector up without cracking the plastic cover?
When the engine was running I can never remember seeing any white smoke and I drove the car for about 20 miles.
One thing I did notice when I removed the manifold was there was an awful lot build up on unit which connects the turbo pipe to the manifold, as if it was unburnt fuel, I don't know what it is but there is a lot of it.
There does'nt appear to be any coolant disappearing or changing colour although I am not entirely convinced the that my oil level is not rising. I did not change the oil so it could be that it was just overfilled.
Many Thanks

wonderwoman

Hi, The advise given by others in a different thread on here for removing the injectors was to loosen the clamp nuts a few turns and start the car letting the compression/cylinder firing break the injector free. This might not be so effective if the cylinder in question isn't firing....
I'm unsure about removing the studs, I also seem to remember reading there is a reason not to, but i don't know why, possibly the alloy thread in the head may strip, don't know...

The other way to remove injectors is by using a slide hammer that screws to the top of the injector.

As to levering them out, there's not much to lever against, the cam cover as you say is plastic.

Possibly just persevering with more release oil and gentle tapping.

The gunk inside the EGR valve on the end of the inlet manifold/turbo pipe is normal, you can clean it out with a blade of some sort and white spirit/diesel or solvent.

Unless the injector has suffered catastrophic failure/lost its tip, there wont be much to see by taking it out, but if the head has to come off, then they all have to come out anyway.

AFC

 

Injector Studs

Hope Im not too late.

You only need to remove the 2 nuts either side of the injector do not touch the studs they screw onto, they will shear off !!!!

If you can get the #3 injector to move from side to side it is free.
Happy days.

Get the two nuts off and then you can carefully use a large screwdriver to lever under the fuel inlet nozzle.
I am sure I just used the shape of the cylinder head as a pivot, but you can make a pivot using a small wood block if necessary.
Protect the threads with a sliver of wood or soft plastic between the 'driver blade and the nozzle, prise it upwards and it will just pop out complete with the injector clamp.

On re-installation you can get the clamp the wrong way round so note how it fits.

 

Hope Im not too late.

You only need to remove the 2 nuts either side of the injector do not touch the studs they screw onto, they will shear off !!!!

If you can get the #3 injector to move from side to side it is free.
Happy days.

Get the two nuts off and then you can carefully use a large screwdriver to lever under the fuel inlet nozzle.
I am sure I just used the shape of the cylinder head as a pivot, but you can make a pivot using a small wood block if necessary.
Protect the threads with a sliver of wood or soft plastic between the 'driver blade and the nozzle, prise it upwards and it will just pop out complete with the injector clamp.

On re-installation you can get the clamp the wrong way round so note how it fits.

Thanks Bladder, I always look forward to yours and flyers responses they have been most helpful to me and it is much appreciated :grouphug: Also a big thanks to everyone else who has contributed to this thread.

I still have not got the injector out but I think it is only a matter before it goes. I will keep you updated with how I am getting on.

Many Thanks
wonderwoman xxx

 

I read that you had problems getting one out, Flyer.

After a 2-week soak in repeated doses of wd40 with the car in normal use, mine came out a dream.
I can only hope that is the case with our 'client'...

 

after my injector woes last summer i advised ALL 75 diesel owners to put some 3 in 1 down each injector entry area and to do it every 3/4 months , it will save a lot of work and heartache , rover/bmw used white grease when fitting the injectors and this is good for the first few years , however thereafter corrosion sets in and the swivel sleeve rusts into the block , to my mind this is a task we should all carry out not just for our own sake but to save future owners this hassle , and yes i know folk will come on saying theirs came out no problem well after 7 years in situ mine didnt , only one popped out the rest were a pig . flyer.:2c:

 

Better check my Will is in order.
Keep Flyer posted on your progress when I'm gone.

 

Wonder-thingy,
are we to expect any progress report after the weekend?

 

still under the bunnet as we say in scotland . Flyer

 

Things took a serious turn for the worse this morning, I had the day off work and I thought right!! I am going to spend I couple of hours working on my car as I had a good feeing that my injector was going to come out today.

Anyway I got a call from one of my friends husbands ( quote, 'Women should not be working on cars, let me get the injector out for you) so I left him with my car and went out for a coffee. BAD mistake, I came home expecting my injector to be out of the car only to find that he has some how managed to pull the top of the injector off (the black plastic bit).

I am fuming because whether my injector is faulty or not it is certainly knackered now and I cannot drive the car. All he could say to me was the injector was well and truly seized.

I am a patient and methodical person he was clearly a butcher. I could scream!!!!


Blackadder you are off the hook now, I have got a new target.



verkill:

Any ideas what I can do now?
sadwoman xxx

 

'Women should not be working on a cars"

You won't find that in the workshop manual.
My pot is always half full so I will assume the statement he made was one of Chivalry not Chauvinism !


Make sure the two little silver nuts holding the injector clamp onto the ridiculously flimsy studs are off.
(I know it seems obvious but trust me, he may have put them back on after his abysmal failure.)

Try to lever the (pitiful, whimpering remains of the) injector out as I described with a large, long screwdriver.
No need to be so careful with it now.

Just lever up against the inlet nozzle and gently tap the nozzle from side to side as you lever upwards until it works its way out. It really shouldn't take muscle-bulging effort. Mine didn't.
If it doesnt come out with all that leverage / impact happening, then it's truly stuck and Flyer may offer some useful advice from his jammed injector experience.

If you do get it out, give Alan a ring at Lynx Diesels to see if he can repair it for you.

 

Apparently when he was trying to get my injector out he had a contraption, that he said was a slide hammer and he was gripping the injector very tightly just under the plastic part of the injector. He said he was at it for about one hour and the injector did not move, eventually the plastic part came off, he said it was well and truly seized. He also said the only way I will get it out is by taking the car to a garage and have them weld something to the injector and have them pull it out. He said there was no way I would get it out.

I usually never give up when I start something but I am very disillusioned now.

Maybe I will give it another go over the weekend, I will keep you updated on how I get on

Thanks again for your time

wonderwomen xx

 

Apparently when he was trying to get my injector out he had a contraption, that he said was a slide hammer and he was gripping the injector very tightly just under the plastic part of the injector. He said he was at it for about one hour and the injector did not move, eventually the plastic part came off, he said it was well and truly seized. He also said the only way I will get it out is by taking the car to a garage and have them weld something to the injector and have them pull it out. He said there was no way I would get it out.

I usually never give up when I start something but I am very disillusioned now.

Maybe I will give it another go over the weekend, I will keep you updated on how I get on

Thanks again for your time

wonderwomen xx

If you had broken it yourself at least you could have a good old rant about it. When it's a friend trying to be helpful you have to be diplomatic about it and that's hard. I do feel for you and hope you have some success over the weekend. Fingers crossed. :bunnydance: :bunnydance: :bunnydance:

 

Any news on this?

 

she is VERY quiet, odd for a woman. Flyer

 

she is VERY quiet, odd for a woman. Flyer

Now you know why she is called "Wonderwoman." We are all begining to WONDER where that WOMAN has got to !! :dunno:

 

Well I know injector removal can be a real pain and while some people are lucky my own saga with a stubborn injector is chronicled here http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f9/td4-injector-removal-48915-2.html
I wouldn't want to do the job again if at all possible.

Allan

 

HI there. Useful gadget you made. Did you have to drill and tap the hole in the injector ?? Also did you apply a little heat to help things along? :respect::respect::respect:

 

Hi All

Sorry I have been a bit quiet of late I got in a right huff (typical woman, I will say it before anybody else does) when my injector was butchered, I have got over now and plan to have another bash at it tonight.

I am all psyched up and ready to go.

Wish me luck

wonderwoman

 

Good Luck you asked us for, well we all wish you have it in bucket loads.

Nil illegitimae carborundum est, Ithink?

 

a wonderwoman with her dander up is a frightening sight to behold . flyer.:rocker: