Steel mesh filters dont filter very well, I would steer clear of that. If it is better than the iTg why has he not posted a power graph showing that? Also he shows it fitted to a 1.8 engine, it mught be a struggle to get that to fit onto the 2.5!

 

Is it the Vader that doesn't flow enough air for the V6?


Ps I have a Stainless filter, true it doesn't filter as much as some filters, but we're talking microns and unless you drive in a dusty environment, the extra filtration from other filters isn't going to give much benefit.

 

BMC or iTG are the best for a 180.

 

BMC or iTG are the best for a 180.

Yes they are proved to be, but you pay for it!!

When you can get within 1bhp of iTG from a home made induction, all you're paying for is a nice looking induction kit and not the power hike.

 

Is it the Vader that doesn't flow enough air for the V6?


Ps I have a Stainless filter, true it doesn't filter as much as some filters, but we're talking microns and unless you drive in a dusty environment, the extra filtration from other filters isn't going to give much benefit.

See for yourself.
http://www.mkiv.com/techarticles/filters_test/2/
If your getting to within 1bhp of an itg, then fair enough, but at what price?

 

It is quite comical to see people paying over £300 for what is effectively an air filter in a carbon fibre box. People must have more money than sense.

If you dont want any induction roar, why not go to a scrappy and get an airbox from a high powered car, TVR, M Powered BMW, 3-4.5L Jags etc. These obviously all flow enough for any KV6 engine.

 

It is quite comical to see people paying over £300 for what is effectively an air filter in a carbon fibre box. People must have more money than sense.

If you dont want any induction roar, why not go to a scrappy and get an airbox from a high powered car, TVR, M Powered BMW, 3-4.5L Jags etc. These obviously all flow enough for any KV6 engine.

There is more to induction than just airflow, like an exhaust the induction system is tuned for the engine it fits. Just sticking any old parts on will not do it. Using parts from another car is a waste of time.

 

There is more to induction than just airflow, like an exhaust the induction system is tuned for the engine it fits. Just sticking any old parts on will not do it. Using parts from another car is a waste of time.

The sole purpose of the induction system is to allow cold, dense and filtered air into the engine. Not sure what you mean by 'tuned' The engine just needs to be supplied with what i have wrote above and as much as possible.

Manufacturers of cars on the other hand have a different agenda. They have to make use of space constraints, they have to make a quiet induction system so induction roar is a no-no - thus the reason for strangulation of air passages. To keep things cheap inefficent air elements are used, they soon clog up as they are only made from paper.

Why would using parts from another car be a waste of time? Using parts from much higher powered cars means you are not going to have strangulation of the induction system due to larger dimensions. Like i have said air has to be cold, thus the air box needs to be moved as far away as possible from heat. Putting battery to boot would be a good idea. If you use an OE box from higher powered cars you know you are getting superb filtration. Then you need a source of cold air, so a cold air intake pipe could be mounted. Obviously this is the cheapest way.

My preference would be to get a large foam induction filter, some thin metal sheets and a couple of flexible hoses. I would then create a cold air box with the metal sheets. Use hoses for cold air intake.

The difference between a good home made system and the ITG system is going to be minimal except you will save at least £200!

 

Right, rubbish. Does resonante frequency mean anything to you? Or Induction cycle? Didn't think so.
http://www.peter-burgess.com/flugelhorn.html
Read this link and tell me theres nothing to induction.

 

What are you on about. Resonate Freq is something the manufacturers try to elimiate (i.e this is INDUCTION ROAR) they do this by designing the air box in a set way. Many cars have extra resonator boxes that are attached to the induction system to try and stop this noise. This extra piping along with tight turns and small openings are the reasons why standard air induction systems are not as efficent as they could be! Not to mention lower quality paper filters.

The K&N they use is bound to loose power at high revs over a standard air box. Why do you think that is? Well look where it is, its sat right next door to one huge petrol heater! Heat soak mean anything to you. The air surrounding the element is creeping up in temperature as you rev the engine. Cold air is much denser than hot air! The standard induction system does not suffer to the extent the K&N does due to being enclosed in a thick plastic container! Thus the reasoning why ITG use carbon fibre boxes. Take the filter out of the ITG box and run it 'as is' It wont do any better than the K&N!

Thus the reason why if you are going to use a aftermarket filter you need to enclose it in a cold air box. A higher supply of cooler dense air is what is helping making the power output increase.

 

There is more to induction than just airflow.

Total, or mass airflow into the engine is the single biggest factor in determining horsepower output. Put more simply, airflow is everything!

The purpose of the intake stroke is to fill the engine with as much air as possible. There are many factors that contribute to the total airflow into the engine. The most important of these is the airflow capability of the induction system which includes everything from the air filter to the intake ports themselves. To optimize the airflow capability of the induction system, we must first be able to measure it. In more exact terms what we are measuring is the induction system's resistance to airflow.

And the reason why a good cold air box works! Well this is down to the effects of temperature.

Temperature also has an affect on air density. The formula to determine air density in pounds per cubic foot is: Pressure in inches of mercury times 1.326, divided by absolute temperature in degrees farenheit. (Absolute temperature = temperature + 459.6) If, for instance your induction system draws intake air from under the bonnet, the intake air temperature on an 80 degree day can easily exceed 130 degrees. Using a barometric pressure of 29 Hg" for our example, the air density under the hood at 130 degrees is .0652 lbs. per cubic foot. Now if you change to a cold air setup which draws 80 degree intake air from outside of the car, the air density is .0713 lbs. per cubic foot This is an improvement of 9.3%! Using a 200 hp engine as an example, this is an improvement of 18.6 horsepower! In practice the horsepower improvement will be less than theoretical because the incoming air will be heated by the intake manifold, and the engine itself. Thus the reason why the example you give me above of the K&N is actually loosing power. Further improvement can be made by insulating the intake manifold so that it picks up less heat from the exhaust system, and radiator. It is probably not possible to achieve the theoretical density increase, but it should be clear that there is much to be gained by keeping the intake charge cool. And keeping the intake charge cool is what a good air box will do, just as well as the ITG can.

 

Regarding your comment about using an airbox off another car, the airbox on the ZT190 is pretty big - although you'd definitely have to move the battery to put it in a ZS180!

 

GMAX you have just proved yourself wrong, LOL. So you now agree there is more to induction than airflow?
You havent read that link of mine yet have you?
Resonate freq. is to be avoided yes. But if you go and use parts from other cars how on earth will you know if you are operating on that freq. or a harmonic of it? You can't, it takes some serious brains and computers to make a good induction system. You should have more respect for the likes of BMC and iTG.
The link shows that different setups resonate at different frequencies killing power from the engine. By the time you buy the kit to measure this on your home brew kit you could have bought an iTG kit twice.
You say you would make an airbox out of metal. Well metal conducts quite well so after a short wile the airbox will be at or higher than engine bay ambient. Thats why most good induction kits use carbon, it dont conduct heat too well. Ideal for cool air induction. Infact even the OEM unit is not metal.

 

Induction debates are always good!!

Well I tried a drain pipe induction last night - routed from TB down to front bumper, it seemed to make power delivery smoother and also quieter.

then put my induction kit back on as I thought the drain pipe was better, but it was because it was going dark and cooler, and it was the same, but it pulled better mid-range.

Anyway atleast I tried it.

Would like to see what the ITG is like and test it back to back with mine to see what or if there are any differences.
The ITG from the ZS does fit the ZT, I enquired about one from Powertrain projects ltd.

 

Its allways the home brew guys or piper guys that are the most fun.

 

Induction debates are always good!!

I've enjoyed reading this too.

There are a lot of different opinions on this, the ones I've seen are
a) buy an enclosed cone filter
b) buy a quality panel filter and keep the OEM airbox (possibly removing the resonator)
c) buy an open cone filter

How close (b) gets to the performance of (a) we don't REALLY know. People who have spent hundreds on the ITG will swear (a) is the best, but unless we raced two cars which were otherwise identical no-one can say for SURE.

I'm going down the (b) route myself thanks to limited funds! And I've read an interesting post from a chap who fitted a panel filter and didn't tell his missus. She drove the car and noticed the difference in performance. Success with a blind test is good going

I wouldn't recommend (c) as you're gaining noise and losing performance.

 

Thing is with induction, you can spend a fair amount on a tested peice of kit, this is fine and usually the best and I would too, but I haven't, Gf would be best pleased me spending £300 on an airfilter - "Whats wrong with the one you've got"?!?!
Plus for me it would have to be good for that money. I noticed a good difference with my induction kit I have anyway, the filter was from my BMW and then I bought a 3" exhaust pipe and Samco coupling, so it only cost me about £20.

Some say a panel filter is best, but it varies from car to car as does the airbox and its flow characteristics. 1 type of induction isn't going to be the best for every car.

Best way is to test them.

 

!And I've read an interesting post from a chap who fitted a panel filter and didn't tell his missus. She drove the car and noticed the difference in performance. Success with a blind test is good going

My Gf thinks my ZT feels quicker (when she drives it) than her Z3 2.8!! When I got my ZT there was quite a difference between it and the Z3, but now with the mods the gap ain't that big now!!

The ZT is alot better now its got past 10K miles and with the mods!!

 

Its allways the home brew guys or piper guys that are the most fun.

He He and the guys who have spent a wad on an induction kit will back it all the way!!

 

b) buy a quality panel filter and keep the OEM airbox (possibly removing the resonator)

Why remove the resonator? - it is there for a good reason!

I know its often recomended to remove it but as fireengineer says - "There is more to induction than just airflow, like an exhaust the induction system is tuned for the engine it fits. "

I would suspect that removing it will have a significant negative effect at some engine speeds.

 

Why remove the resonator? - it is there for a good reason!

Sole pupose being to make it quieter to meet 'drive-by' noise criteria. They usually present a huge restriction too, certain do on the Integra Type R's

 

interesting thread I must say

would putting an intercooler in help draw in colder air on a nasp engine? then freeze the intercooler with a liquid nitrogen cooler?

 

Sole pupose being to make it quieter to meet 'drive-by' noise criteria. They usually present a huge restriction too, certain do on the Integra Type R's

It does not have a SOLE purpose. It is also tunet to assist the engine with the induced pulses of air. Hence the trumphet intake on the res. box. Nothing about induction is simple. Peoplg grab on to one aspect and that becomes gospel to them. Its like saying the sole job of tyres is to help the car corner better, well what about braking and accelerating?

 

interesting thread I must say

would putting an intercooler in help draw in colder air on a nasp engine? then freeze the intercooler with a liquid nitrogen cooler?

I've thought about using an intercooler on a NASP engine, but its purpose is to cool heated air from the turbo to as near as possible the ambient temp, but the air drawn in on a NASP should be around this anyway - so no benefit, plus I think with the internal construction of an intercooler it would be a hinderence in air flow.

 

Most of the time to reduce air intake noise a soft ribbed type material is added to the intake of the airbox to silence it. Take this soft pipe off most boxes and it will increase the induction noise.

I have an induction pipe on mine that is close to the length of the original and it made a good difference to when it wasn't there, also it takes it up and to the right out of the direct flow of the rad, as at first I just stuck it on the throttle body as a tempory measure.