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MGROVERnut said:
According to GM, Pontiac or Buick may die as they are damaged brands

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4378047.stm

I wonder if SAIC could acquire the dealer network by taking one of the brands on in someway? That could be a quick way to re-enter the US market!
I certainly remember being impressed as a child by the Firebird, then years later in the US getting my hands on a Grand Am rental car and being disappointed. Pontiac does seem slightly sporty, whilst Buick are more of the classic yank-tank. I rented a Skylark too once. Where would that leave Olds? Are they still selling Cutlass ?
 

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When I was over in the states 2 years ago I was disapointed in the pontiac's. they had lost their sporting looks and seemed more like the Buicks
 

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I can't help but think, that either Buick or Pontiac would make a superb partner to MG Rover. One of the drivers for SAIC and MGR working together is the fact that SAIC have no brand or dealers in Europe. With either Buick or Pontiac they would gain both in the USA. SAIC could quite easily set up another MGR style deal with one of them and MGR would be able to "piggy back" of the back of it. MGR and Pontiac or Buick would gain a dealer network in Europe/ USA overnight.
 

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Pontiac is only "damaged" because half of its range is hideously ugly; Buicks are also going similarly downhill.

I have driven a Buick Park Avenue, and was disappointed at the seemingly poor quality (cheap plastics, etc.)
 

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The yank speaks

I say farewell to Buick! Thank God!



There is nothing worse than flying down country roads in a MG to come up behind a Buick. Only old farts drive Buicks. They drive 10 under and leave their blinker on.. Completely off in la la land.



Buick is the classic American Boat that looks as inspiring as road kill (as was Oldsmobile.) I am wondering when they are going to trash Lincoln. Then old people will have to take the bus because all their favorite cars will be gone.



Pontiac on the other hand is rather surprising move. They just came out with the GTO and though it looks nothing like the original they are trying harder than Buick ever did.



I don't think that MG/Rover should work breaking into the American market with GM. Firstly; people are confused enough when I say MG.. GM MG??? what?! Are you on Drugs son?



Secondly, GM engineering blows, Americans give Vintage English Engineering a bad rap, I would rather have my gums scraped with a rusty spoon than work on a GM product (New or old!)



MG/Rover just needs to work it's mojo and come into America in their own way.
 

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yankMGnut said:
I say farewell to Buick! Thank God!

Pontiac on the other hand is rather surprising move. They just came out with the GTO and though it looks nothing like the original they are trying harder than Buick ever did.
Doesn't really constitute as trying as it's an import - but getting the car redeveloped to pass American NHTSA regulatioins in that short time is a real feat (they had a Holden engineering team in Melbourne and a Pontiac engineering team in Detroit to utilise the time difference, one team calls it a day and then passes the progress on to the other which is just starting their day and then passes it back at the end of the day...)

Rented a Buick Century years ago.... dull dull dull dull dull, I'd rather drive a Volvo 240. But then i guess it's no worse than the Ford Taurus or Oldsmobile Cutless or Chevy Lumina. But the Pontiac G4 and the new Caddys seem to show a glimmer of hope.

Ian Fleming wrote this about American cars in Live and Let Die in 1953: "They were just "vehicles" , similar in shape and in colour, and even in the tone of their horns. Designed to serve for a year and then be turned in in part exchange for the next year's model. All the fun of driving had been taken out of them with the abolition of a gear-change, with hydraulic-assisted steering and spongy suspension. All effort had been smoothed away and all of that close contact with the machine and the road that extracts skill and nerve from the European driver. To Bond, American cars were just beetle-shaped Dodgems in which you motored along with one hand on the wheel, the radio full on, and the power-operated windoes closed to keep out the draughts."

Most cars have auto transmission and power steering these days, but it's amazing things haven't really changed much in 52 years. Except for the advent of the cupholder which worsened the problem... :)
 

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rover_800
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This thread really belongs in the other makes section. Also GM today officially denied that there were any plans to cull the marques. Mr. Lutz either mis-spoke, or (and this is how untrue crap suddenly becomes gospel!) he was simply replying to a reporters hypothetical scenario of whether they'd consider eliminating a marque a la Oldsmobile, if they (GM) weren't able to reverse the sales decline of one of their many divisions. Not sure if someone floated this question or not, but if I was Lutz and this was asked of me, I would reply, "we would certainly have to look at the long term viability of continuing with that particular Division vs pulling the plug.".
 

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yankMGnut said:
I say farewell to Buick! Thank God!



There is nothing worse than flying down country roads in a MG to come up behind a Buick. Only old farts drive Buicks. They drive 10 under and leave their blinker on.. Completely off in la la land.



Buick is the classic American Boat that looks as inspiring as road kill (as was Oldsmobile.) I am wondering when they are going to trash Lincoln. Then old people will have to take the bus because all their favorite cars will be gone.



Pontiac on the other hand is rather surprising move. They just came out with the GTO and though it looks nothing like the original they are trying harder than Buick ever did.



I don't think that MG/Rover should work breaking into the American market with GM. Firstly; people are confused enough when I say MG.. GM MG??? what?! Are you on Drugs son?



Secondly, GM engineering blows, Americans give Vintage English Engineering a bad rap, I would rather have my gums scraped with a rusty spoon than work on a GM product (New or old!)



MG/Rover just needs to work it's mojo and come into America in their own way.

GM Engineering blows? I'll admit that not everything GM does is brilliant, but to say their engineering blows tells me you don't know what you are talking about. Go tell that to the guys that designed and engineered the Latest Corvette or Cadillac XLR. How about the new STS, The SRX, The CTS? What about The GTO. Designed by Holden, but still a GM design. The New Buick Lucerne might be quite conservative (So is a Toyota Avalon) but it looks to be a very Credible offering in it's respective Market segment. The New Saturn Sky and Aura look really promising and so does the Pontiac Soltice. Like I said, you don't know what you are talking about when you make sweeping statements like that.
 

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He's well correct IMO. Except, (and actually that's a big except I admit) for the engines, most of which are really damned good, GM makes crap cars top to bottom.

Rebuilding a Chevy 350 is a pleasure. Putting it back in the car it came from seems almost criminal. The Volare especially would be prosecuted at the ICC as a crime against humanity... If the US were to sign on that is.
 

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Stephen K. Hone said:
Like I said, you don't know what you are talking about when you make sweeping statements like that.
I have worked on many GM products.. The way they stuff things in the Engine bay is a nightmare. Putting an Oil sensor right next to the oil filter is a great idea! ER NO! Nothing beats a filter that was put on too hard and when you try to take it off your tool slips and break the $30 sensor! That is one of many stories of really bad layout. The engines work well but the cars themselves are as inspiring as a lump of poo. Pray nothing breaks.

The new Cadillac is a joke, Let's target young people because no one under 60 wants to buy the huge boat we used to make. The Corvette hasn't been amazing looking since the 50's and 60's. Why? Because GM was competing against e-type's, MG's, Triumph's, Austin Healey's. The Corvette was a huge American rip off to try to make money off of the English idea of sports cars.

To you Stephen K. Hone I say you have very boring taste in Cars if you are defending American shiat boxes. Why on earth you are at a Rover/MG site? It is beyond me.. So what you are telling me if knowing the history of GM and English cars makes me clueless I wonder what world you live in? Any Ideas? Didn't think so..

Ian Fleming said it all in terms of American cars...

We just pump the cars out and hope people will bite.
 

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yankMGnut said:
I have worked on many GM products.. The way they stuff things in the Engine bay is a nightmare. Putting an Oil sensor right next to the oil filter is a great idea! ER NO! Nothing beats a filter that was put on too hard and when you try to take it off your tool slips and break the $30 sensor! That is one of many stories of really bad layout. The engines work well but the cars themselves are as inspiring as a lump of poo. Pray nothing breaks.

The new Cadillac is a joke, Let's target young people because no one under 60 wants to buy the huge boat we used to make. The Corvette hasn't been amazing looking since the 50's and 60's. Why? Because GM was competing against e-type's, MG's, Triumph's, Austin Healey's. The Corvette was a huge American rip off to try to make money off of the English idea of sports cars.

To you Stephen K. Hone I say you have very boring taste in Cars if you are defending American shiat boxes. Why on earth you are at a Rover/MG site? It is beyond me.. So what you are telling me if knowing the history of GM and English cars makes me clueless I wonder what world you live in? Any Ideas? Didn't think so..

Ian Fleming said it all in terms of American cars...

We just pump the cars out and hope people will bite.


I stand by what I said it was a sweeping and clueless (ignorant) statement. You could probably talk to people with extensive knowledge of other marques and they could point to less than stellar engineering solutions/designs on those cars. So that means everything they engineer is crap right? If you have such brilliant insight into what is good engineering, and what is not, perhaps you ought to be designing and engineering the cars for GM. Obviously you would be better at it the engineers they currently employ.
 

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:indiff: American management is unpredictable.

They ruined Oldsmobile some years ago. In the end an Oldsmobile was no Oldsmobile anymore, just a Buick with a different badge, that no one wanted to buy. And the management was wondering about the nosedive of sales. So they dumped this good old brand. Clever. :cus:

GM invented the Saturn brand to compete against the low price Korean cars. So these Saturns had to be very cheap and were poorly build. In other words, they did all they could, to establish a discount brand. Anyway, that didn't help to increase their sales figures as expected.

Now these managers had a brilliant idea. “Hey, we do own Daewoo. Let’s relabel these cars into Chevrolets. Chevrolet is a good brand for cheap cars. And what about our more luxury cars? Which of our brands would fit best, maybe Oldsmobile? No, it's gone. Oh, there is Saturn. Let’s build a quality brand with Saturn.” Clever again. :cus:

Eventually the image of Chevrolet will be ruined shortly, but Saturn has never had a reputation. So what the hell they are thinking? :wtf:

The real problem is that the American motor industry is fixed on costs and prices. They don't bother with quality.

During the last 12 years or so, I met a lot of Americans. Many of them were telling me they won't buy an American car, because of quality(!) issues. So they are going to buy European cars. At least some good news. :)

:2c:
 

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yankMGnut said:
Secondly, GM engineering blows, Americans give Vintage English Engineering a bad rap, I would rather have my gums scraped with a rusty spoon than work on a GM product (New or old!) .
Here is information on the 2006 Corvette Z06.

http://www.corvettemuseum.com/specs/2006/index.shtml





The 2006 Corvette Z06 has a pushrod engine, but pushrod engines usually weigh less than OHC engines. Pushrod engines also have less height than OHC engines. The Cadillac CTS-V uses a 400 hp LS6 instead of Cadillac's DOHC Northstar V-8 because of the Northstar V-8 wouldn't fit easily under the hood of the CTS. The LS7 has a 7,000 rpm redline. Here is an article about the 2006 Corvette Z06's 500 hp LS7

http://popularhotrodding.com/tech/0504phr_ls7/

The fenders of the 2005 Corvette remind me of the fenders of both the C2 and C3 Corvettes. Notice how they go into the door.







The 2006 Cadillac STS-V won't match the performance of the Mercedes-Benz E55 AMG or the BMW M5, but at least the STS is no longer front-wheel-drive. Here is information on the new STS-V.

http://media.gm.com/events/autoshows/05naias/brands/cadillac/stsv%20overview.html

Here is a video of it

http://files.automotiveforums.com/nias/gm/cadillac/V-SeriesL.mov



"The supercharged Northstar V8: 4.4 liters, 440 hp, 430 lb-ft of torque - 90% of which is available from 2200 to 6000rpm, and VVT. This supercharger is worthy of special note - engineers were happy to tell us that this blower operates with some 30% less drag than the Ford GT's supercharger, and the intercooler has 50 cooling fins per inch length of the pipeline."

from motorsportscenter.com



The Pontiac Solstice came out as a concept at the Detroit auto show in January 2002 as this...

http://seriouswheels.com/top-Pontiac-Solstice-Roadster-Concept.htm

and will go into production in a few months as this

http://seriouswheels.com/top-2006-Pontiac-Solstice-Roadster.htm

 

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panther said:
:indiff: American management is unpredictable.

They ruined Oldsmobile some years ago. In the end an Oldsmobile was no Oldsmobile anymore, just a Buick with a different badge, that no one wanted to buy. And the management was wondering about the nosedive of sales. So they dumped this good old brand. Clever. :cus:

GM invented the Saturn brand to compete against the low price Korean cars. So these Saturns had to be very cheap and were poorly build. In other words, they did all they could, to establish a discount brand. Anyway, that didn't help to increase their sales figures as expected.

Now these managers had a brilliant idea. “Hey, we do own Daewoo. Let’s relabel these cars into Chevrolets. Chevrolet is a good brand for cheap cars. And what about our more luxury cars? Which of our brands would fit best, maybe Oldsmobile? No, it's gone. Oh, there is Saturn. Let’s build a quality brand with Saturn.” Clever again. :cus:

Eventually the image of Chevrolet will be ruined shortly, but Saturn has never had a reputation. So what the hell they are thinking? :wtf:

The real problem is that the American motor industry is fixed on costs and prices. They don't bother with quality.

During the last 12 years or so, I met a lot of Americans. Many of them were telling me they won't buy an American car, because of quality(!) issues. So they are going to buy European cars. At least some good news. :)

:2c:
Perhaps these might help...

2005 Saturn Aura concept (with styling from Vauxhall)

http://www.fast-autos.net/saturn/saturnaura.html

and the 2007 Saturn Sky which has styling from Vauxhall and will use the 2006 Pontiac Solstice's chassis. It will have more standard stuff than the Pontiac and will cost more.

http://www.fast-autos.net/saturn/saturnsky.html
 

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panther said:
:indiff: American management is unpredictable.

They ruined Oldsmobile some years ago. In the end an Oldsmobile was no Oldsmobile anymore, just a Buick with a different badge, that no one wanted to buy. And the management was wondering about the nosedive of sales. So they dumped this good old brand. Clever. :cus:

GM invented the Saturn brand to compete against the low price Korean cars. So these Saturns had to be very cheap and were poorly build. In other words, they did all they could, to establish a discount brand. Anyway, that didn't help to increase their sales figures as expected.

Now these managers had a brilliant idea. “Hey, we do own Daewoo. Let’s relabel these cars into Chevrolets. Chevrolet is a good brand for cheap cars. And what about our more luxury cars? Which of our brands would fit best, maybe Oldsmobile? No, it's gone. Oh, there is Saturn. Let’s build a quality brand with Saturn.” Clever again. :cus:

Eventually the image of Chevrolet will be ruined shortly, but Saturn has never had a reputation. So what the hell they are thinking? :wtf:

The real problem is that the American motor industry is fixed on costs and prices. They don't bother with quality.

During the last 12 years or so, I met a lot of Americans. Many of them were telling me they won't buy an American car, because of quality(!) issues. So they are going to buy European cars. At least some good news. :)

:2c:

Ahh! More twaddle!
 
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