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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
just brought my first rover,a 214si and the first couple of days i had it it was perfect and very nippy for a 1.4 16v.my problem started when i changed the front break pads.there is a definatle lack of accelleration and slower through all the gears.i can get a top speed but it takes a while.there is also a wirring/warping kind of noise(the kind of noise a hellicopter rotor blad makes when i the rotor is slowwing down)

the old pads were almost down to the metal so i had to push the piston back into the calliper to get it onto the disc.the left hand calliper piston did leak a bit of fluid from the piston chanmber when i pushed it in but that stopped after i had pushed it back.i didnt push the pistons back all the way,just enough to get the calliper over th disc.

could the brakes be rubbing and causing my lack of power,if so how do i go about corresting the problem?

many thanks,jay
 

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I had same problem with my 406, the calipers where damaged and where eating discs and pads like a fat kid eating cakes in a cake shop!

had the calipers repalced, njew discs and pad's fitted, and no problem at all, try that b4 you tinker with the engine to check power, i have the same motor and am doing a can of 50k boost at the weekend sometime, along with oil changes etc, so shall let you know if any of that helps! :rvd:
 

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Your posting indicates one or more seized calipers. There should be no leakage at all of brake fluid.

I strongly suggest that you don't drive the car anywhere other than to a garage to have the brakes inspected/overhauled. Alternatively you could do this yourself with a Haynes manual and suitable tools. Every brake component including the master cylinder and rear brakes need to be treated as suspect until proven otherwise and all of your brake fluid will need replacement.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
ok thanks for your replies.the brake wernt rubbing at all b4 i changed the pads so it must of been somthing ive done.as i said b4 the car had alot more go in it and that seemed to of gone after i did the brakes.

i dont have the money to take it to a garage at the moment so im gonna have to take a look myself.i didnt notice a clunk as i was reversing and braking and then again when i pulled away,it sounded like the pads were moving in the calliper?

i also noticed that the braking had faded since i first fitted the pads,they dont seem to have that initial bite anymore...it only been 3 days since i fitted the new ones!!

when i have a look at the brakes myself what am i looking for? im thinking that the obivous sign would be if i jacked the car up and tried to spin the wheel and it wouldnt budge then they must be seized? if that not the case what else do i look out for? if it just a case of the pads rubbing to much on the disc,do i just open the bleed nipple till they retract? the brake fluid in the resovoir did go up alot after i had pushed the pistons back,the lid was off but the pistons did go back to the same position they were in for the old warn pads,i had to be really quick to get the caliper over the disk b4 they closed to much.

i just remembered somthing,there was a metal plate that sat on the outside of the pads,they were rusted away to nothing and i couldnt put them back on,the new pads i brought didnt have these so i couldnt even put new ones back on.

i have oredered a hayes manual but that wont be with me for a while as i payed by cheque and it has to clear b4 the book is sent out so im gonna have to go on the word of any kind people who are will to point me in the right direction

thanks for your time,jay
 

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Obertelli said:
Your posting indicates one or more seized calipers. There should be no leakage at all of brake fluid.

I strongly suggest that you don't drive the car anywhere other than to a garage to have the brakes inspected/overhauled. Alternatively you could do this yourself with a Haynes manual and suitable tools. Every brake component including the master cylinder and rear brakes need to be treated as suspect until proven otherwise and all of your brake fluid will need replacement.
I second that.If your piston seals are indeed leaking I would not recommend you for a first time change them yourself it is a delicate procedure and an eye for spotting worn parts is needed.Getting the new seals in without tearing/pinching them is a delicate art.
 

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The pistons shouldn't push back on their own, so somats up there. Air in the system?

Did you bleed the brakes after changing the pads? After sorting out the leaky seal this would be my first port of call.
While not absolutely necessary I would also try and get the pad retainers if poss from a motor factors. Wouldn't hold out much hope though for something like that.
 

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jay27 said:
ok thanks for your replies.the brake wernt rubbing at all b4 i changed the pads so it must of been somthing ive done.as i said b4 the car had alot more go in it and that seemed to of gone after i did the brakes.
Perhaps it's that they WERE rubbing so much that the pads had worn down almost to the metal. If the problem has been there a while, it may be that the previous set of pads DID wear down to the metal. Before you changed the pads the caliper pistons were possibly in a non-seized portion of the bores. It's also highly likely that your discs have worn too thin. The lack of go after the pad change indicates that the pistons have been pushed back to a corroded section of the caliper bores.

jay27 said:
i dont have the money to take it to a garage at the moment so im gonna have to take a look myself.i didnt notice a clunk as i was reversing and braking and then again when i pulled away,it sounded like the pads were moving in the calliper?
This clunking may also suggest that the discs are worn out and allowing excessive pad movement.

jay27 said:
i also noticed that the braking had faded since i first fitted the pads,they dont seem to have that initial bite anymore...it only been 3 days since i fitted the new ones!!
Logical. If brake fluid was getting out of the seals then it may be contaminating your new pads. If this has happened your pads are now bin jobs. Also if fluid gets out, air and moisture will get into your braking system. Brake fluid absorbs moisture from the air, when it gets above a certain limit it causes corrosion of the brake cylinders/pistons etc. and when the brakes get hot the water boils off as steam and effectively causes an airlock in the system. The symptoms are the same as air getting into the system; i.e. your brakes hydraulics no longer work and you can't brake. As you're strapped for cash did you buy genuine pads from a reputable supplier? Sadly and very dangerously there are huge numbers of counterfeit pads around and they're utterly useless.

jay27 said:
when i have a look at the brakes myself what am i looking for? im thinking that the obivous sign would be if i jacked the car up and tried to spin the wheel and it wouldnt budge then they must be seized? if that not the case what else do i look out for? if it just a case of the pads rubbing to much on the disc,do i just open the bleed nipple till they retract? the brake fluid in the resovoir did go up alot after i had pushed the pistons back,the lid was off but the pistons did go back to the same position they were in for the old warn pads,i had to be really quick to get the caliper over the disk b4 they closed to much.
As others have said, they shouldn't push in quite this easily. Further indication of a severely malfunctioning brake caliper.
jay27 said:
i just remembered somthing,there was a metal plate that sat on the outside of the pads,they were rusted away to nothing and i couldnt put them back on,the new pads i brought didnt have these so i couldnt even put new ones back on.
These are your anti-squeal shims. They aren't an essential part of your brakes but as the name suggests they do help to prevent brake squeal.

jay27 said:
i have oredered a hayes manual but that wont be with me for a while as i payed by cheque and it has to clear b4 the book is sent out so im gonna have to go on the word of any kind people who are will to point me in the right direction
This is one of the best investments that you'll ever make. However from your subsequent postings I'd agree with others that overhauling your brakes is not a good place to start to acquire your DIY skills. If it was something simple like just a caliper change then maybe, but I'm sorry to have to tell you that it sounds like you're braking system is severely damaged . If you tackle this yourself with your current skills then you're likely to miss something and may kill/injure yourself and others. Brakes are the one thing that you cannot cut corners on or try to do on a budget. If you're short of cash you need to stop using the car until you can afford to get the work done properly by a professional. If you ask the garage they may well let you watch the work being done so you can pick up some invaluable knowledge that way.

jay27 said:
thanks for your time,jay
You're welcome. Sorry it isn't better or more encouraging news. I know that I suggested driving the car only to the nearest garage but your brakes appear to be so knackered that I can't even recommend this. Horrible to suggest it but you need to look at whether the repairs are going to be economically viable. The total repair costs could be as high as £500 at somewhere like Kwik-Fit. If you're very lucky and only one caliper has gone with no other work needed then you'll still be looking around the £200 mark at Kwik-Fit. Now that cars are better made and don't tend to rust to death, failed brake systems are one of the top reasons that a car ends up being scrapped.

***EDIT*** I forgot to mention this; if you've only recently bought the car and it was from a dealer then they're liable regardless of whether you bought a warranty or not. (Sale of Goods Act). The Courts have set a precedent that even an older "bargain" type of vehicle should be "fit for its purpose" for at least three months after purchase and that there should be no major failures affecting functioning or roadworthiness during this period. If it was a private sale and was described as "good condition" you may have a valid claim against the previous owner but you'll need evidence that the vehicle is "substantially not as described". If it was bought at auction then unless the auctioneer described it as "all good" (HIGHLY unlikely on a car this old) you have no claim at all. Even if it was "all good" you'd only have one hour after the auction to make a claim.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
what the prcedure for inspecting the brakes myself,im gonna have to do it coz the garages near me are all closed till tuesday now :-(

what gap should there be between the pads and the disc if any,i always thought that they should touch the disk ever so slightly?

should i check that the pistons are retracting enough and not to where the old pads were worn to by pressing the pedal with caliper off but pads still in?

could it be warped discs making the noise,i remember i had a simular problem with my corsa back last year and a new set of discs and pads solved the prob.

i dont think the discs in my rover are warn too much,there is a slight lip in the edge but nothing to indicate a change needed although i didnt check to see if they were warped?

sorry for all the questions,im really disheartened at the moment coz i had so much truble with my corsa and it never worked properly since the day i got it and i was hopign things would be different with my rover :-(
 

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jay27 said:
what the prcedure for inspecting the brakes myself,im gonna have to do it coz the garages near me are all closed till tuesday now :-(
Sorry Jay, there is so much info that you need I wouldn't know where to start.

jay27 said:
what gap should there be between the pads and the disc if any,i always thought that they should touch the disk ever so slightly?
You are correct. The entire pad surface should ideally be in contact with the disc. The disc surface should ideally be completely flat and unridged.

jay27 said:
should i check that the pistons are retracting enough and not to where the old pads were worn to by pressing the pedal with caliper off but pads still in?
NO!!! No further damage (at least nothing that will make the brakes need even more work) will occur if you push the pistons back in carefully, but you may damage them further by doing what you suggest.

jay27 said:
could it be warped discs making the noise,i remember i had a simular problem with my corsa back last year and a new set of discs and pads solved the prob.
Maybe. But if you have warped discs they're the least of your brake problems.

jay27 said:
i dont think the discs in my rover are warn too much,there is a slight lip in the edge but nothing to indicate a change needed although i didnt check to see if they were warped?
An unworn lip at the disc edge is a poor indicator. You need to measure the disc thickness with a micrometer. The max/min thicknesses are normally stamped onto the disc edge, but are impossible to see once the edge gets rusty.

jay27 said:
sorry for all the questions,im really disheartened at the moment coz i had so much truble with my corsa and it never worked properly since the day i got it and i was hopign things would be different with my rover :-(
Ask away. That's what the forum is for. It's just a shame that your brakes seem to need a total overhaul that's too complex to give a step by step guide for here. There is another Haynes manual that covers just brakes and it's worth a look at to give you guidance in more detail.

I know that you're keen to start driving your Rover but hopefully you'll realise that in it's present state your car is extremely dangerous and must not be used. I'm not plugging Kwik-Fit but they and similar outfits are open all weekend and can often offer a free brake check & inspection. Even if there's one near to you though you'd have to work out how to get the car there safely. It would really need to be taken on a trailer or a proper tow truck. Don't tow it using another car unless you can find a tow car with a caravan/trailer towing hitch and can hire either a rigid A-frame towing device or car trailer. If you get them to do this inspection don't feel pressured into letting them do the work. On the other hand, they are normally fast and (with brakes at least) normally do a good job with a pukka guarantee.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
i think i know wot the problem is,i put the pads in wrong.i just got hold of a hayes manual and ive dont it wrong.


instead of resting the pads on the disc and then putting the pad cover on i put the discs in the cover and then had a bugger of a time trying to get it all 2gether


im gonna have to have a look now and take out the pads and put them back the rioght way
 

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You may have done it the hard way but I doubt that is the cause of your problem. It still doesn't address the fluid leak from the piston either and doesn't explain the rapid deterioration in brake performance after you replaced the pads.

One of the major headaches of running a car is that they sometimes go expensively wrong and it's ALWAYS when you're skint! Or in my case it's when it's a bitingly cold and windy Christmas night in the middle of Dartmoor raining heavily and without a mobile phone or tools...but that's another story altogether...
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
rite,ive had the wheel off and the brakes taken out and put in again,they are definatle better but the noise is still there.i just remembered somthing,i had a new back box and middle pipe fitted by quick fit last week and i remember the noise starting then.i made a mate drive up the road while i listened and the noise is comming from under the car caused by the air flow as its moving.


the whole exhaust was in a terrible state and so far ive had a brand new back box,middle pipe and down pipe.could this be somthing to do with my lack of power,its not a lot of power loss but it definatly there,could they of not welded or sealed somthing properly(kwick fit).if im going 20mph and in 3rd,if i try pull away it takes a while,4th gear is the same it only relay has any go in it when im doing 40mph and 5th is the same unless im doing about 60-70mph

when i had the back box and middle pipe changed i also changed the air filter and spark plugs,i noticed on the old plugs that the gap was different on each plug,i put the old plugs bak in and it a tiny bit better but not as smooth to drive.according to my hayes manual the gap should be 1mm but in my rover handbook it says it should b 0.85mm.i checked the gap on my new ones with a feeler gauge and the were 0.85 but they made the car run a bit slower.is it worth me getting the new ones and makeing the gap slightly smaller.

isnt the plugs somthing to do with compression? if so how would i do a compression test? and how to i go about correcting it if its low?

1 more thing,on my old corsa if the battery went flat or was dissconected the ecu had to be re-callabrated,i know that when i got the car the bat was flat and they changed it and when they done my exhaust they dissconected the battery i think

thank again for your help and i promise that i wont be such a pain again
 

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I've already posted about your other problems, so I won't go over it again here. IMO this car should be taken back to where you got it. You've only had it a week.

As for the power loss it could be related to several things going by what you have said.

One is the fact the exhaust is blowing, the brakes are binding and the other is the ECU. Changing the HT leads may help too.
The ECU will reset to factory defaults when the battery is disconnected. However it is an adaptable ECU that will learn and adapt to the engines characteristics and different driving styles.

My car has a few modifications to it and I have noticed myself that when the ECU is reset the car seems a little sluggish. However after a couple of hundered miles it tends to improve as it adapts.
My advice apart from getting shut of this bucket of bolts is to get the exhaust and the brakes sorted then give it a few hundred miles to bed in again.
 

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Jay, having read your postings on this thread and others you've made you've got to realise by now that the dealer who sold you this heap has screwed you royally.

Stop driving it immediately as if it doesn't break down first it's going to kill or seriously injure someone and certainly don't spend another penny on it in parts/repairs. The new MOT you have isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

So far you have totally knackered and unreliable brakes, unpredictable and extremely dangerous steering plus you have two duff front tyres. You've changed the exhaust as that was also kaput.

Seeing a pattern yet?

There is no way on God's Earth that this scrapheap should have passed an MOT in the last week or two and you have to bite the bullet on this one and try to claim against the dealer. If he refuses then contact trading standards first thing Tuesday. Unfortunately they will probably want you to spend more money on an engineer's report in order to get evidence to pursue the dealer. It's up to you whether you think it's worth shelling out any more money on this, but the same report will be needed if you want to file a case with the Small Claims Court.

Having said that, in my experience the sort of nasty criminally irresponsible conmen who flog these kind of cars tend to ignore the Courts anyway and you then have to spend even more on bailiffs to enforce the decision. If this is successful you get all your money back including your expenses, but it's a real gamble as it often turns out that the conman is using a fake I.D. or has no property in his own name.

If it was me, I'd TRY to get the dealer to sort it out and I'd TRY to get Trading Standards on his case. I'd even attempt reporting the matter to the Police Traffic Division as they will sometimes investigate cars as awful as yours. In the end though I'd reluctantly and angrily be prepared to lose my money and recover whatever I can from the vehicle by scrapping it, but I doubt there's much money in yours. I wouldn't be surprised if the brand new exhaust is probably the only worthwhile part.

Perhaps you'll ignore the advice given to you by myself and others and keep on driving this heap. Just bear in mind that if the Police stop you in this car you will end up with a confiscated unroadworthy vehicle, Police storage/tow charges, and if you want to avoid prosecution you'll have to spend an uneconomically stupid amount on the car to enable it to pass a legitimate MOT. You'll be up crap creek with only your hands to paddle with and the dealer will be walking away laughing.
 

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Further to this you say you have only had the car a week. I'm not sure but seeing as this car would be still be covered under the sale of goods act and the fact is not fit for it's purpose you may still be legally entitled to a full refund or compensation.
You are most certainly entitled for it to be repaired to be fit for the road.
According to the sale of goods act the car MUST be sold fit for the purpose it is intended WITHOUT defects unless otherwise stated at the time.

Did you pay cash or credit/debit card for the car?

I know this is your first car and you probably really want it, but to me this car is a wreck and the dealer who sold it you is a criminal.
It seems he is twisting the law to sell you this car. I don't know how much knowledge you have of cars, but don't waste any more time on it.
Take it back to the dealer, don't take any crap from him and stand your ground. If he refuses to put the car right mention you will take it to trading standards. Give the keys back to the dealer, tell him where the car is and walk away then go to trading standards.
 

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ashy said:
The pistons shouldn't push back on their own, so somats up there. Air in the system?

Did you bleed the brakes after changing the pads? After sorting out the leaky seal this would be my first port of call.
While not absolutely necessary I would also try and get the pad retainers if poss from a motor factors. Wouldn't hold out much hope though for something like that.
front caliper pistons will push in, rears are screwed in.
 

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rover220 said:
front caliper pistons will push in, rears are screwed in.
Hmm..you seem to misunderstand. Please read that post again.
http://forums.mg-rover.org/showpost.php?p=1409601&postcount=4

jay27 said:
the brake fluid in the resovoir did go up alot after i had pushed the pistons back,the lid was off but the pistons did go back to the same position they were in for the old warn pads,i had to be really quick to get the caliper over the disk b4 they closed to much.
I mean the pistons shouldn't return once pushed back into the caliper.
 
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