[davecooper]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that MG use BMW sourced Diesels in the ZT. If this is the case, why do they use a unit that develops less power than BMW's own 2 Litre unit (129 vs 150 bhp). The only technical reasons I can think of is packaging of the transverse engine and traction problems with high torque and front wheel drive. That said, have they ever thought of using the BMW 2.5 or 3.0 Litre Diesels in the rear drive ZT260 chassis. With the exception of a coiuple of notable companies, nobody is offering very high power diesels in saloon cars (170bhp+), and although not a complete convert, I can see the benefits of diesels. A ZT 3 Litre Diesel would be a very serious machine indeed.

 

[PonteLad]

A ZT 3 Litre Diesel would be a very serious machine indeed.

Indeed, but they needn't turn to the dark side to achieve this

 

[Diesel45]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that MG use BMW sourced Diesels in the ZT. If this is the case, why do they use a unit that develops less power than BMW's own 2 Litre unit (129 vs 150 bhp). The only technical reasons I can think of is packaging of the transverse engine and traction problems with high torque and front wheel drive. That said, have they ever thought of using the BMW 2.5 or 3.0 Litre Diesels in the rear drive ZT260 chassis. With the exception of a coiuple of notable companies, nobody is offering very high power diesels in saloon cars (170bhp+), and although not a complete convert, I can see the benefits of diesels. A ZT 3 Litre Diesel would be a very serious machine indeed.

I understand that the engine used by BMW is the same unit with some later updates and I believe that they achieve extra power at the expense of some refinement.

 

[David Lee Newsham]

The first application of the BMW M47R Diesel unit was in the Rover 75 in early 1999, at that time BMW had only developed the engine to deliver around 115bhp.

By the time the power output was uprated and the unit was fitted to BMW's own cars MGR were independent of the Germans and BMW were unwilling to sell the higher powered version the MGR.

Towards the end of this year when the 75/ZT receives it's new interior the M47R will be no more as all Diesel versions of the 75 and ZT will be fitted with MGR's own Common Rail L Series which will be made by Powertrain at Longbridge after the revised K Series production commences in China.

Icidentally Powertrain have used the M47R as the benchmark for the new L Series and I understand they have surpassed it in all areas particulalry refinement.

 

[Rover_ron]

Icidentally Powertrain have used the M47R as the benchmark for the new L Series and I understand they have surpassed it in all areas particulalry refinement.

That is really good to hear - I always thought there was life in the old dog!

Sorry the L series is not a dog.
I look forward to a 130bhp version in my next Rover 55, or 46 or whatever the 45 replacement is eventually called.

 

[Adrian Robertsh]

So what about the rumour MGR are sourcing the Fiat/GM JTD engine for teh 75? Unless the updated L series acheives at least 150bhp MGR are wsating their time putting in it in the 75! Just look at the competition now.

 

[Rover_ron]

So what about the rumour MGR are sourcing the Fiat/GM JTD engine for teh 75? Unless the updated L series acheives at least 150bhp MGR are wsating their time putting in it in the 75! Just look at the competition now.

Nothing wrong with them using the new L series for lower power models and outsourcing a BMW beater for the ZT and making it an option on the others.
(say 170-200+bhp)

They probably need an option to compete with a BMW330d or the Jag Stype 2.7 diesel, which clearly the L series won't provide. But to compete with the BMW 320D, and 2L Jags, the L series sounds like it will fit the bill.

 

[Rovertron]

Actually the 2.0CDT engine has three tunes, 118Bhp, 130bhp and 155Bhp. Rover had single contract on 118bhp, BMW were paranoid to the extreme of any Rover saloon stealing 3-series sales hence only offered the 118Bhp variant. After the split, BMW placed a restrictive covenant on the ECU (Bosch) for 12 months. MGR then chipped the engine to a respectable 131Bhp later.

I would agree with DLN, let's just say there has been a high degree of reverse-engineering going on regarding the M47R.

As for the new L-series, 150Bhp has to be the starting point up to 175bhp. Any more with a diesel you need a V6.

 

[Rover_ron]

I don't think we'll see as much as 150bhp from the 'new' common rail L series.
Its only 8valve, though a 16v head could be in the pipeline I suppose, and already runs quite a high boost pressure to get 115bhp (1-1.2bar).

I think it'll just be limited to around 130-140 bhp and used for the 25/45 replacements and 'base' model 75 diesels.

 

[Adrian Robertsh]

I agree totally Rover-ron and have said as much on other threads, The 75/ZT needs at least a 180 diesel to remain competitive and unless the updated L series is getting a 16valve head along with other state of the art technology it ain't going to get much above 140 IMO.

 

[boxwellm]

16 valves don't help particularly with refinement, nor do they help with low down power. They only really make a difference at higher revs.

Powertrain know what they are doing, and they know what the competition are doing. They wouldn't be wasting their time with the L-series if they didn't know what they were up against. It will be very interesting to see what their new diesel engine will be like. Certainly for the smaller cars and the base model 75, I think they will have an excellent engine.

Of course, there will need to be a performance diesel as well and who knows what will happen for that. Could the new engine have a larger bore or different crank to give a bigger cubic capacity?

The problem with buying in an engine is that most manufacturers see their performance diesels as their crown jewels and don't want to give them to their competitors, so MG-Rover will probably have some difficulties buying in performance diesel engines. Of course, if MG-Rover develop their own they can use that to their advantage, by putting their performance diesels on the open market for any other manufacturer to use.

 

[kirpeknots]

LandRover's TD5 is nothing more than a 5-cylinder L-series with PD technology. They could use the 5 cylinder block of the TD5 and the new head technology from the upgraded L-series to make a 2.5 5 cylinder high power diesel to compete with 6-cylinders.

LandRover is no longer using this unig in the Discovery. It is still used in the Defender. I dont know when they stop using it.

(The TD5 project "Storm" was originally develped as a 4-, 5- and 6-cylinder range that should succeed the L-series. BMW killed the project in favour of the M47)

I hope the new engine is available in November!!!! (For my new car... A ZS maybe)

 

[Adrian Robertsh]

I suspect the TD5 will not fit in the 75 engine bay and for the relatively small number of sales its' probably more cost effective to buy in the engine for a 'performance' diesel in the 75/ZT. Hopefully MGR will try and build in to any supply deal automatic upgrading as more powerful units become avilable. The Fiat/GM JTD 1.9 unit which is rumoured to be going into the 75 has been developed to over 200 bhp by GM using twin turbos'. This is a separate engine to the 200bhp 2.4 JTD 5 cylinder that is going into the new Chroma and Alfa 157. The TD5 is being replaced by a Ford (Transit?) based engine in the L/R. The Discovery now has the Jag/Ford/PSA V6 2.7 diesel.