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Making refillable suspension spheres

15360 Views 29 Replies 12 Participants Last post by  1Leigh
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My last project before I sold my car was to attempt to make refillable spheres to allow the nitrogen to recharged.

I individualised my spheres a few years ago and it makes this process much easier. I would recommend this as part of the process.

The following pictures are a bit of a mishmash of rear and front spheres as I lost some of the pictures due to a corrupt SD card.
Therefore I will treat the Offside rear, and then the photos will change to a front sphere.

This is a sphere already off the car:


The first step is to clean the sphere top to get it ready to mark up:


This is a rear sphere so you need to mark it carefully as you cannot just use a central position for the filling nipple.
Mr.Tim kindly provided some drawings in Post #7 in his thread: http://forums.mg-rover.org/showthread.php?t=669178
Align the liquid boss towards you:


Mark a line from the rivet towards the liquid boss:


Take a measurement from your rule to your calipers:


Transfer this from the rivet center to the marked line:


Make your center mark:


Mount the sphere in a vice for drilling:


Drill a hole. Smaller the better. I used a 4mm drill here.


Go slowly and steadily to try and keep the cuttings long so then don't chip and fall inside.
This is 17 year old Nitrogen puffing limply out (I had an assistant capture this while I quickly pulled the drill back):


Clean up the area around the hole:


Offer up the threaded boss:


Tack weld the boss on:


This is where there is a disjoint in the pictures- I did not finish the rears as I decided to sell the car, and the front boss welding pictures were lost.

I welded the bosses with a MIG welder, grinding the weld back and re-welding to prevent leak paths. For both front spheres this process had around 8 iterations. If I was doing it again i'd TIG weld it, although brazing would be an option, but I don't like the heat required.

With the boss fully welded I applied some chemical metal (Devcon brand) to hide my pathetic welding and in an attempt to cover for any porosity that I was unable to detect. I would not depend on the chemical metal for structural performance, but if it's only preventing a tiny leak then it's worth it. I heated it up to get it to flow better.


The Schrader valves were then put in with a thread sealant and left to cure for 24hours. If you don't let the sealant set then you risk blowing it out and rendering it useless (although you'll convince yourself it's not the fault as 'You used sealant').
These valves have been fitted with 2000PSi refrigeration type cores.




A filling hose had to be made up (at significant cost) using a chuck called a strut coupler from Schrader themselves




A regulator was purchased in the non-standard range 0-20 Bar (also at significant cost), and 16 Bar of Nitrogen was put in.



The spheres were then placed in water to look for leaks.


They were left in there for 4 days and then the pressure was checked on the regulator hose again. They were fine.


Then they were placed on my bench


I did not get them fitted to my car before I sold it, so they are now in a box. I'll check their pressure again in a few weeks to see if they would really have held up.
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Nicely done how-to, thanks. I have a few spheres that I am hoping to do this to over the winter and I'll definitely be referring to your proceedure.
Nice set of pictures. This is similar to some work I've started. Refillable Nitrogen spheres will be the savior of the F if we can get them made at a reasonable cost.
I've been looking at using R134a High Pressure service ports as a filling valve. This would allow easy vacuuming, (to get the air out), of the spheres prior to recharging the Nitrogen and the fact that they should hold 35bar pressure easily. A further advantage is that any good AC engineer will have the equipment already and should only charge about £10 max per pot.
The problem I'm faced with at the moment is access to the top of the spheres. This is essential in order to be able to recharge in-situ, so your photo has helped a lot. One comment was made about damage to the rubber lining which I didn't agree with, any thoughts on that aspect?
Am i missing something here? I thought the spheres were full of fluid rather than nitrogen and part of the process to overhaul the F suspension was to use the hydrolastic vacuum pump to evacuate any gas (air) from the sphere prior to refilling with fluid.
Nigel
Mr Scoop,
I take, and agree with, all of your points.

The rubber membrane on the front springs remained intact through repeated MIG welding processes as I built up a leak-free joint. It was cooled regularly by submerging it in water after every pass and left to cool thoroughly between each weld and grind iteration.
It was then left in a warm cupboard for two weeks to dry out and prevent any water remaining in the Nitrogen side.

If I had gotten past the tacking stage on the rear sphere in the photos I anticipate that I would have filled the sphere with cool water to let it absorb some weld heat, given the proximity to the crimp of the upper and lower section and he membrane itself, and also placed some wet towels on it.
When welding the front spheres you are reasonably well distanced from the crimp.


The tacked sphere from the pictures is available to anyone who wants to pay the postage.



Mr.(Count?) Ax,
The liquid fills the lower portion of the springing unit. The upper part is filled with the nitrogen.
They are isolated from one another by a rubber membrane.
The Nitrogen compresses, whereas the liquid flows with the movement of the suspension arm, and so the gas is what affects the actual springing. Without the gas, and full of liquid, it would not work.
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Mr Scoop,
I take, and agree with, all of your points.

The rubber membrane on the front springs remained intact through repeated MIG welding processes as I built up a leak-free joint. It was cooled regularly by submerging it in water after every pass and left to cool thoroughly between each weld and grind iteration.
It was then left in a warm cupboard for two weeks to dry out and prevent any water remaining in the Nitrogen side.

If I had gotten past the tacking stage on the rear sphere in the photos I anticipate that I would have filled the sphere with cool water to let it absorb some weld heat, given the proximity to the crimp of the upper and lower section and he membrane itself, and also placed some wet towels on it.
When welding the front spheres you are reasonably well distanced from the crimp.


The tacked sphere from the pictures is available to anyone who wants to pay the postage.



Mr.(Count?) Ax,
The liquid fills the lower portion of the springing unit. The upper part is filled with the nitrogen.
They are isolated from one another by a rubber membrane.
The Nitrogen compresses, whereas the liquid flows with the movement of the suspension arm, and so the gas is what affects the actual springing. Without the gas, and full of liquid, it would not work.
That makes perfect sense. Thanks for the clear explanation.
Nigel
Am i missing something here? I thought the spheres were full of fluid rather than nitrogen and part of the process to overhaul the F suspension was to use the hydrolastic vacuum pump to evacuate any gas (air) from the sphere prior to refilling with fluid.
Nigel
Everything BlackOctagon says is correct. The problem is that after 15 / 20 years, the Nitrogen has started to dissipate from some cars. This leads to the suspension getting stiffer as the Hydrogas is pumped up, (to compensate for lack of Nitrogen), and the compressibilty is lost. Worst case scenario is no Nitrogen left, which would make the cars very uncomfortable and probably hard to handle. As there is no existing way to replenish the Nitrogen, we have to come up with something.
There is a company in Birmingham fitting valves and recharging the spheres off the car, at £100 a pot, which is not cost effective for some cars, so if we can get the cost down, it should keep more F's on the road.
i wonder why the refill point has to be so close to the nitrogen ball top? since nitrogen isnt hard to get... or expensive.. why not extend the feed in pipes to a more easily accessible point on the car?

even with leaks.. one can replenish, just like one keeps ones tyres at the correct pressure... ok so the pressures are more an extreme difference... but if you want to make something serviceable.. make it easy...

:?

after all , those spheres are really dual - interlinked ( front to back ) shock absorbers,,, hydraulics and gas, this isnt not done before stuff.. its well known..

why not have an easier nitrogen master feed point? why make it stuck on the top of the casing? the nitrogen pressure in both rear and both front... should be identical.. so to do that - the front and back nitrogen pressure points should be connected - one pressure two places?

that said... i think the post is excellent.. and a good use of time and effort.. TY for giving us that.. its valuable and a credit to you.

the real problem with the spheres is not regassing the nitrogen... its the pressure valve inside them.. its totally inaccessible.. its when that goes wrong, the whole sphere becomes unusable.. since that assy is trapped inside... its that part that really needs a better solution.
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Some thing I have thought about doing but never got around to doing a good idea to part fill with water if for any reason you was to burn through there is a good chance of saving the diaphragm from damage can you list or post links to the parts for future use if I ever get round to it
Ron
As a recent forum member, I've had much pleasure in reading over your posts blackoctagon. I've found them to be some of the most informative and enlightening posts on the board. I was particularly interested in your thread regarding hydragas spheres, so I thank you very much for coming back to complete the picture. And if you slice any more engines, please post them here, K series or not!

I first read of the possibility of filling the gas side of the spheres by a post on the mgoc forum by an Aussie who was doing this to his race cars. I became more interested in this after my car underwent a front subframe rebuild after an MOT failure, and I noticed a decided hardening of the suspension after this work was done. As part of my efforts to get my car back on the road after an extended lay-up, fixing the hydragas will be part of that work.

An interesting question for me is would the suspension work if the internal diaghpram was punctured, if the sphere was isolated and gas was added to the top / liquid to the bottom to the correct pressure?
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Quote 1Leigh"An interesting question for me is would the suspension work if the internal diaghpram was punctured, if the sphere was isolated and gas was added to the top / liquid to the bottom to the correct pressure?"

answer - NO
why?
because the two spheres are in effect a two stage shock absorber, controlled by a pressure valve.

when the hydraulic pressure in the bottom sphere is greater than the valve setting.. it can allow fluid into the second chamber if the gas pressure is less than that..

so and if fluid can enter the second chamber.. it pushes against the diaphragm in the top - second chamber.. until equilibrium is reached - the gas cannot be compressed... or the fluid pressure goes down

if the fluid pressure goes down.. the gas pushes the fluid out.. until again equilibrium is reached.. the valve closes..

so.. if you puncture the top sphere diaphragm.. gas can now mix with fluid.. and escape.. the system stops working.. since now you have less gas in one place.. the top sphere.. and no designed gas pressure in the top sphere.. and gas bubbles in the hydraulic fluid.. the whole system stops working ...

what will happen if the top sphere diaphragm is punctured is that hydraulic fluid pressure will reach equilibrium.. fluid in both top and bottom spheres contaminated with nitrogen at the same pressure.. and the valve cant work.. because the same pressures are on both sides of it.. it doesnt do anything anymore.. it floats open

so because you now have fluid in both chambers.. completely.. fluid is not compressible, except for the nitrogen gas bubbles... the result is the suspension becomes hard... no gas to compress in one place, no valve to work properly

?

if you want to separate the gas and the fluid and use a valve to allow one to compress the other based on pressure, determined by the valve... there are better ways to do it..

not least get the valve put in a place it can be easily serviced... and look at how dual pressure shock absorbers work... that use both gas and fluid.. The hydragas system was built to cost.. thats why the valve is pretty much unserviceable, one had to buy new.. good profit for mgf...and the garages... a supply chain based on profit.. not repair.
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Nice guide - filling the sphere with water should help control tempretures when welding but I wouldn't quench it in water straight after welding as this will weaken the join, better to allow to cool naturally.
Do not forget the parallel spring force, which contribute to global equilibrium, the compressed spring in a bump will pull out the bottom tapered plunger, creating quinte a vacuum in the bottom chamber that has to be refilled be the fluid.
A lot of good advices in this post
The reason I ask the question is when I had work done on my car which involved evacuating the hydragas fluid then refilling, the ride was noticably firmer after the work. Maybe she was sitting low before the work began, I'm not sure. Didn't think so though
These spheres are now available to anyone who wants to take a chance on them.

They appear to have held pressure since they were filled and photographed.

They come with no warranty for my welding so if they let go it's at your own risk. "For off road use only" I believe is the statement.

This is a giveaway and not a sale, but I will need postage/courier money. Ask for a quote.

I will be back online by Saturday, so don't get anxious about a reply before then.
You have a PM Sir.
Yes please.

Do you know how much postage will be?
Can you take payment via paypal gift?

I don't have any pmail on here so please email me on james . babelfish . demon . co . uk

Thanks
James
Posted this on another hydragas themed thread but had actually meant to post it here, for anyone else looking for more info on hydragas repair. The MGCC Sweden BBS has a post on repairing hydragas spheres I think using a system developed by an italian company for use with citroen spheres. More info here, if anyone can read Swedish and add more info please post!

TeknikForum :: Läser ämne - Fylla kvägas i klockorna
Been looking further at the swedish method. From what I can gather a thread is tapped directly into the sphere and the valve installed directly into the tapped thread.
I have stopped looking into this as I sold the car last year, but I did consider threading the sphere top. The thickness of the metal meant that I did not feel it would be reliable, as even with an extremely fine pitch I was only getting 1 - 1+3/4 threads, which is just not enough.

That as a locating method plus welding would be a choice for me though - holding the threaded boss in place whilst welding was a problem, especially for the rears.

I also considered using shallow rivnuts, welding them around the periphery and then adding the valves. That is probably where I would have ended up if I had continued.


I still have my nitrogen filling gear (hose, chuck and 20bar regulator) but i'll probably sell it on now that interest is picking up as it was too expensive to keep 'just in case' and it's better to be helping the hydragas community somewhere.
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