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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just been watching how over the last few years the Germans have won the Tec war!

DSG Gearboxs
Mass Production Carbon firbe panels
High Magusuim alloys
Mass production cermanic brake disc's
Cam-less Engines (almost)
VERY High pressure Direct injection Petrol/Diesel engines.
Audi able to weild steel to alloy on the production line.

I mean Audi will be making a new Alloy TT, Lighter than before, Cermaic brakes 350 BHP engine, 4WD, DSG absolute cutting edge stuff...............the rest of the World is left standing.

Mega
 

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Oh Mega get a grip.

Who did the mighty, all-singing, all-dancing VAG come to when looking for a durable and advanced gearbox to power their almighty Veyron? Us.

Who did they get to make their firebreathing McLaren SLR? Us.

Who invented sand-casting engine production methods utilised by Mercedes and Aston Martin for their motorsport divisions? Rover.

The UK is full of automotive technology companies such as Prodrive, Ricardo, Lotus, even if you rather they didn't exist. You're not jealous by any chance are you?

The only reason we probably never beat them to such advanced tech is probably down in part to defeatist and forever pessimistic whingers like you.

You've outdone yourself this time Mega, you really have.
 

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mg_zt_t
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Master Yoda said:
are you sleeping with the owner of VAG mega ???

Sleeping with a VAG in a word ... yes!
 

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mg_zt_t
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Liam Olf said:
Oh Mega get a grip.

Who invented sand-casting engine production methods utilised by Mercedes and Aston Martin for their motorsport divisions? Rover.

The UK is full of automotive technology companies such as Prodrive, Ricardo, Lotus, even if you rather they didn't exist. You're not jealous by any chance are you?

The only reason we probably never beat them to such advanced tech is probably down in part to defeatist and forever pessimistic whingers like you.

You've outdone yourself this time Mega, you really have.
For That I believe they ( M-B ) had to obtain a licence to do so... Much K-series production technology has been adopted and adapted by many manufacturers worldwide... yes even some of those.

Mega possibly is aware of all that and if he is, being the fount of all motoring knowledge ( like what I am :) - I watch Top gear so know everything automotive ) shame on him for his failure to mention it!

Remind me who, (and where) was responsible for the fabulously successful and reliable Renault F1 Championship winning car's engine .... Gorn then ... I dare yez.
 

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Whatever are we all doing still awake now?

I'll tell you I went shopping in premium-priced Marks & Spencers today and I feel that I would be happy to find a single thing made in Europe, let alone Britain.

I take the thread title to refer in a Fawltyesque way to "the war". Fact is, your average German has no feeling that ordinary Germans lost the war and would share (with greater conviction) our revulsion for Nazis. This kind of thread title is probably a foretaste of what we can expect when the World Cup gets under way...

NB I expect some people are glad that German standards of build and quality control have been introduced to certain marques. Skoda in particular, I feel...;)
 

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Mega said:
Just been watching how over the last few years the Germans have won the Tec war!

DSG Gearboxs
Mass Production Carbon firbe panels
High Magusuim alloys
Mass production cermanic brake disc's
Cam-less Engines (almost)
VERY High pressure Direct injection Petrol/Diesel engines.
Audi able to weild steel to alloy on the production line.

I mean Audi will be making a new Alloy TT, Lighter than before, Cermaic brakes 350 BHP engine, 4WD, DSG absolute cutting edge stuff...............the rest of the World is left standing.

Mega
You have actually lost the plot.

DSG Gearboxes - Made by BorgWarner, who are famous for their VelvetDrive marine gearboxes, containing, shock horror, two clutches. They're American and use technology that has been knocking around in marine transmissions for the past 50 years, dual clutch plates, nothing new there, quite possible that Newage or Lister were some of the first companies to come up with that kind of technology.

What about trains, they've been using a two stage gearbox system for 20+ years now, the old Voith T211r which features on most BR diesel multiple units, starts on a fluid drive upto 40mph then switches into a mechanical drive upto 75-100mph with no loss of power transmission.

Carbon Fibre Panels - Essentially a British invention and nothing new anyway, composite materials such as carbon fibre, GRP and such have been knocking around for 50 years, Kevlar is an American brand from DuPont, Carbon Fibre may be of Japanese origin but GRP and the whole principle is a British WW2 invention for Radar radomes.

Your beloved TVR has been using carbon fibre for a number of years, and in case you haven't noticed, Aston, Lotus, Land Rover and Jaguar have been working on equally advanced construction methods, aerospace grade epoxy aluminum chassis anyone ?

High Magnesium Alloys - you do realise that Aluminium and Magnesium were discovered over 200 years ago by British scientists (though the Chinese used Aluminium salt thousands of years earlier). UK and US aerospace research has given us most of the new alloys discovered post WW2, indeed, RR has a massive alloy research project over at Oxbridge.

A direct result of the need for harder, more versatile alloys for jet engine fan blades and compressor parts, and which have been used for the past 20 years in the RB211 jet engine. Rover didn't even need anything more than low pressure casting for it's state of the art engines, still providing better power to weight ratio 20 years on compared with much of what VW and BMW can muster.

Mass Production Ceramic Brake Discs - The brake disc is a 120 year old British invention, brought to prominence through aircraft and the Jaguar racing cars. Ceramics are again an offspin of Rolls Royce jet engine program and nothing but a natural progression of a century old British design.

Indeed, much of the ceramic brake technology comes directly from British based F1 teams and Jaguar were amongst the first to use both disk brakes and to eliminate heavy metals from their brake pads.

Camless Engines - Won't even bother replying to that utter piece of rubbish Mega. MGR was working on camless engines using patented technology from Camcon. They were the only manufacturer who at the time could forsee the day when an engine wouldn't need a complicated timing belt and which could have totally variable valve timing. No other manufacturer was close to even thinking about such an engine. Again, another example of the brilliance of the staff in the flight shed and over at Powertrain.

Very High Pressure Direct Injection - Direct injection is as old as the hills, basic Lister, Gardner, Kelvin and Paxman engines have high pressure direct injection systems with cam gear driven fuel pumps. Cars can't muster the high compression ratios of bigger diesel engines so they need to increase the fuel pressure somehow and the easiest way to do that is increase delivery pressure. The higher the compression ratio, the more diesely an engine will sound. The Rover L-Series is rough but very, very economical, the Honda CDTi thing is smooth but not all that economical. You start to loose torue with lower compression ratios too.

In short, very high pressure direct injection is a backwards step, the real way to increase fuel economy and torque on diesel engines is to go back to higher compression ratios. Big, low revving diesel engines can produce thousands of pounds of torque thanks to proper high compression low revving design. The lower the revs, the less wear on the engine too. Well balanced 3000rpm diesel engines do exist, indeed, Gardner were one of the first engine companies to fit a diesel engine into a car, a Lagonda back in the 30s.

Steel to Aluminium Welding - ICI have been manufacturing what they call "Kelocouple" for the past 20 or 30 years, used to come from the Nobels Explosives site from Ardeer, in Ayrshire as I recall as the Steel and Aluminium have to undergo an explosive chemical reaction to bond them together. This kelocouple is welded between the steel and Aluminium to create an exceptionally strong and corrosion resistant join. VW will be using a version of this kelocouple in their manufacturing process, or something very similair.
 

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You know, I actually like it when Mega contributes - mainly because you get so many replies with great facts correcting him! :lol:

In many ways the products coming out of Germany are very much like the old criticism that has been levelled at the Japanese; never invented anything, just productionised it. Sadly, it also illustrates the terribly British ability to invent, yet never capitalise on the opportunity staring us in our faces.
 

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V8King said:
In many ways the products coming out of Germany are very much like the old criticism that has been levelled at the Japanese; never invented anything, just productionised it.
Now, the number of German patents in the automotive sector is nearly as high as the one of Japan and USA combined (I only have figures from 2002: Germany 2,962 patents; Japan 1,768; USA 1,535; France 699). So there is no lack of home-grown inventions. The German automotive industry spends about Euro 14 billion every year for R&D, that´s a very high level.
 

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Atmos said:
Now, the number of German patents in the automotive sector is nearly as high as the one of Japan and USA combined (I only have figures from 2002: Germany 2,962 patents; Japan 1,768; USA 1,535; France 699). So there is no lack of home-grown inventions. The German automotive industry spends about Euro 14 billion every year for R&D, that´s a very high level.

Yes the german patents in the automotive sector far surpass the rest, altough the rest of the world has its contribution too.

Ofcourse it's actually the germans Daimler and Benz who invented the auto.

It should have been called a Daimler/Benz instead of automobile or car.

Otto, Diesel and Wankel were germans.

Furthermore germans helped/contributed to the developement of the auto industry in other countries too.

Think Daimler and Triumph in Britain.
 

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Cracking post, Nick. very informative and it's good to see Mega hasn't (and probably can't!) post his come-back.
V8King is spot-on about Britain being inventors but never capitalising on it. So many inventions that are in everyday use were founded here yet many people assume it was the Japanese or the Yanks!
DarkOne - let's not forget the the German auto industry owes the British rather more than we owe them - remember who is was that restarted production of the Peoples Car after WW2
 

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patpending said:
I take the thread title to refer in a Fawltyesque way to "the war". Fact is, your average German has no feeling that ordinary Germans lost the war and would share (with greater conviction) our revulsion for Nazis. This kind of thread title is probably a foretaste of what we can expect when the World Cup gets under way...

;)
Very true indeed.

The Germans picked themselves up after 1945, and got on with rebuilding their country and its industry, tasks they achieved very well when you consider that the country was divided, it lost one of its major industrial provinces (Silesia) and its cities and the Ruhr were in ruins.

One of the saddest things about the British is that they simply cannot get over the war as far as Germany is concerned. Far too many people still think of them as Nazis, which could not be further from the truth. It is a crime to display the Hakenkreuz (swastika) in Germany, and since 1945 all schoolchildren have been to at least one former concentration camp to learn about the Holocaust.

Unfortunately our wonderful media continue to remind the British of Nazis and the virulent anti-German stance adopted by papers such as the Murdoch-owned 'Sun' is shameful. Such reportage leads to disgraceful incidents involving visiting Germans, including children and young people, being spat on, attacked and called 'Nazi' by British thugs.

If more British people were to abandon their prejudices about Germany and visit the country, they would be very pleasantly surprised. They would find a clean country with beautiful towns, villages and countryside, populated by very pleasant, polite and hardworking people whose appreciation of education and culture is way beyond that of the average Brit. They would enjoy excellent food and drink, including very good German wines.
 

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Mega I'm not sure what your point is. Most of the things you list (if not all) are not German inventions. Yes they go into high grade German cars, but they also go into many other cars.

If the Germans are so good then why is the biggest 4x4 maker in Europe American owned? So what if Audi can join steel to Aluminium? Jaguar make entire cars out of Aluminium!

Mazda use rotary engines. The Japanese ARE the most sucessfull car makers in the world. The French are as successfull as the Germans at making cars (Renault/ Nissan/ Dacia, Pug, Citroen).

Mega what is your point?
 

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Charles Regan said:
Very true indeed.

The Germans picked themselves up after 1945, and got on with rebuilding their country and its industry, tasks they achieved very well when you consider that the country was divided, it lost one of its major industrial provinces (Silesia) and its cities and the Ruhr were in ruins.

One of the saddest things about the British is that they simply cannot get over the war as far as Germany is concerned. Far too many people still think of them as Nazis, which could not be further from the truth. It is a crime to display the Hakenkreuz (swastika) in Germany, and since 1945 all schoolchildren have been to at least one former concentration camp to learn about the Holocaust.

Unfortunately our wonderful media continue to remind the British of Nazis and the virulent anti-German stance adopted by papers such as the Murdoch-owned 'Sun' is shameful. Such reportage leads to disgraceful incidents involving visiting Germans, including children and young people, being spat on, attacked and called 'Nazi' by British thugs.

If more British people were to abandon their prejudices about Germany and visit the country, they would be very pleasantly surprised. They would find a clean country with beautiful towns, villages and countryside, populated by very pleasant, polite and hardworking people whose appreciation of education and culture is way beyond that of the average Brit. They would enjoy excellent food and drink, including very good German wines.
For once Charles I absolutley agree with your post - spot on, we have a lot to learn from our other European neighbors.
 

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DarkOne said:
Ofcourse it's actually the germans Daimler and Benz who invented the auto.
Ahem!

The first true automobile was the Cugnot in France, circa 1770 iirc. In addition Etienne Lenoir was ahead of Otto etc with his internal combustion engine a good 8 years or so beforehand.

Saying that the auto was a German invention is not, therefore, strictly correct.
 

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Atmos said:
Now, the number of German patents in the automotive sector is nearly as high as the one of Japan and USA combined (I only have figures from 2002: Germany 2,962 patents; Japan 1,768; USA 1,535; France 699). So there is no lack of home-grown inventions. The German automotive industry spends about Euro 14 billion every year for R&D, that´s a very high level.
Nice statistics, but they don't mean a fat lot. Take a look at what the patents actually address, and then a far better picture will emerge. I don't mind saying though that the R&D figures give full credit to the German firms as a whole.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Your all missing the point, the Germans took the inventions and used them. They going very High-Tec, think the French are likey to take a big hit here. China will come with a wave of cheap cars, VAG will move up a rung or two up the ladder.

Mega
 
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