MG-Rover.org Forums banner

filter tips?

2.8K views 20 replies 7 participants last post by  Masterbateson  
#1 ·
I am trying to convince myself into being lavish and Buying an ITG panel filter.
However, being tight! I am finding the idea of paying that much for a panel filter very traumatic.
I have tried doing a search on here for air filters, to see if i can get some ideas of what to fit/try, but it keeps coming back with all sorts of Cake!!!

There's never any performance filters on fleabay and no luck in the scrap yards.

Whats everybody out there got? whats good, whats not good?

I know some ones made a filter housing out of a rover 800 or summat filter housing with a cone filter.

Should i just buy a ITG panel filter then seek counselling?
 
#2 · (Edited)
Hi

I have a 160 and have fitted two hoover extension hoses to the air scoops I too was looking for a cheep way forward.
I work in the building maintenance game. Filter media is used on air grills and I fitted mess in the air housing and the filter media on the underside. It works a treat, better mid range power / throttle response.
PM me and I could send you sum to try if you like.

Ta-tar for now

Ian
 
#5 ·
Cone head

Thought about a cone, as i ran the car for a bit with no air box and no filter, just straight off the throttle body pipe, with a doubled up pair of stockings 10 denier(courtesy of the missus,honest) and sounded great.
I am currently running using same stockings,stretched over the airbox were element should be (kinky car).

The only thing that put me off a bit about using a cone, is that the consensus on here seemed to be, last time there was a filter discussion, was that you would loose power compared to a sealed unit in the air box?

One idea i had if you went the cone way was to, add some air intake pipes from the side vents or under car etc, that would come up to the air filter and hopefull y surround it in nice cool air.

However 2nd hand cone is cheap and i like that, just wish i could find a 2nd hand itg panel or pipercross panel.

Like the home made exhaust, wish i could get one for a tenner!! found an exhaust at a scrapper but think its off an F would it fit the TF? And scrappy bob wants 25 sheets.
When i saw it at the scrapper thats exactly what i thought about, get the tin opener out, pull all the baffles out and weld shut!

However? :dunno: something in the back of my head tells me, exhaust systems are/should be tuned, soooooo if you remove the baffles do you/could you reduce your power output? despite achieving a nice noise.

Eyes wide, your filter sounds like my idea too! i have butchered an old paper filter(took out paper) so that i could glue in a piece of foam.
I've not gone thru with it yet (chickened out) so might go ahead with that, was hoping a 2nd hand filter would have come up by now:crying:

Wow i think i should start writing novels.
 
#18 ·
Thought about a cone, as i ran the car for a bit with no air box and no filter, just straight off the throttle body pipe, with a doubled up pair of stockings 10 denier(courtesy of the missus,honest) and sounded great.
I am currently running using same stockings,stretched over the airbox were element should be (kinky car).

The only thing that put me off a bit about using a cone, is that the consensus on here seemed to be, last time there was a filter discussion, was that you would loose power compared to a sealed unit in the air box?

One idea i had if you went the cone way was to, add some air intake pipes from the side vents or under car etc, that would come up to the air filter and hopefull y surround it in nice cool air.

However 2nd hand cone is cheap and i like that, just wish i could find a 2nd hand itg panel or pipercross panel.

Like the home made exhaust, wish i could get one for a tenner!! found an exhaust at a scrapper but think its off an F would it fit the TF? And scrappy bob wants 25 sheets.
When i saw it at the scrapper thats exactly what i thought about, get the tin opener out, pull all the baffles out and weld shut!

However? :dunno: something in the back of my head tells me, exhaust systems are/should be tuned, soooooo if you remove the baffles do you/could you reduce your power output? despite achieving a nice noise.

Eyes wide, your filter sounds like my idea too! i have butchered an old paper filter(took out paper) so that i could glue in a piece of foam.
I've not gone thru with it yet (chickened out) so might go ahead with that, was hoping a 2nd hand filter would have come up by now:crying:

Wow i think i should start writing novels.
yes, cone filters in a hot bay loose power... and yes my exhaust probably didnt much increase power

and you know what?

it didn't make a blind bit of difference

you can talk theory all you like but on my car fitting a cone filter made it 'feel' no slower but did give me a 'hole' in my map as the car passed through 3.8k rmp when it dulled a little

but this was corrected with the de-cat pipe

fitting the free de-cat, home made backbox and cone filter made the car feel almost no different, the only thing i'd say that helped is the de-cat

that said it was so much more fun to drive thanks to the noise it made! (ask Ross... he had a very expensive, semi-stainless steel tube attached to his :sofa: and both exhausts made us grin, it's just that i saved myself ÂŁ300+ sheets


as for the air filter, i should mention btw i took a cone off... and fitted a BMC carbon fiber enclosed cone with cold ducting and guess what?

sod all difference

if you going to port your head, fit aggressive cams, lighten your fly and really tune your engine then great

if not and some immense noise looses you 1bhp... so what? your engines lost more than that through age anyway lol

so enjoy the sound track which is what a roadster is about!

the F exhaust would fit but only with a F cat in place of your TF one :)

if your going down the 'correct' route get a expensive inclosed cone, route it to the side vent with xr3TFs ducts... get a tubular manifold, sports car (or de-cat if its non VVC) and a good back box from a company like quicksilver... then GET A RE-MAP and you should see 20bhp

if you just want your car to sound nice... save yourself 1.5k and slap a cone on, a de-cat and go for the tin-opener solution, less than ÂŁ100 spent and the same feel when booting it :D

thats my opinion! lol and lord knows im no expert
 
#6 · (Edited)
Mr Bateson,
The filtration that a pair of tights will give vs a properly produced cone or panel is negligible - the particles that cause engine wear will not be troubled by the mesh in tights. On that basis I don't recommend it.

The amount of power an engine will produce is proportional to the air pressure and density. I'm sure you know the cold air-higher density bit, so I won't repeat that.
The bit most people don't consider is the pressure drop across the filter media. The pressure entering the engine should be as close as is possible to atmospheric, as this is your high pressure reservoir (and assuming no mechanical pressure charging) so you want as much of it driving into the low pressure areas of the manifold. The best way to do this is to have a high surface area filter as air will always flow to the path of least resistance. This means that when the media is caked it's resistance will increase so flow will be taken in though low resistance uncaked areas.
The bottom line to that is that if you have a big filter you have more chance of flowing via lower resistance areas, and that translates to less pressure loss and higher manifold pressures, which of course translate to higher cylinder pressures.

If you consider engines on competition vehicles you will see they are always as large as can be packaged into the body, sometimes to the extent of looking ridiculous in the cases of arena racing monster trucks.

A pipe of similar diameter to the throttle body covered with enough tights layers to effect good filtration is not the best solution to this due to a single flat surface being prone to blockage.

Ultimately the rules of good inlet design, pre-dynamic regions, are;
Intake is placed out of any dust streams.
Intake fed from a high pressure area on the bodywork.
Forward facing intake is usually desirable, to try to stagnate flow, but don't mistake this for ram-air. That's different, and in most cases wishful thinking at road speeds.
Intake fed from cool ambient air.
Large filter media surface area.
Smooth duct transitions from filter media towards throttle/dynamic areas.

Follow that and you'll be doing the best you can.

If you want an actual opinion, and a practical one, i'd say use as big a cone type filter as you can fit and enclose it in a large cylinder so it can be evenly fed from all sides to avoid preferential caking.


On the exhaust baffle question, yes and yes. However the length of the MGF/TF system prior to the cat and cat position means that the major reflection wave will be done from the cat matrix and not the baffles in the backbox. From previous professional experience and by inspection of the backbox the baffles are sound reduction and not major reflection planes (even if they were the wave would be damped in the cat matrix).
From my own personal experience ( http://forums.mg-rover.org/showthread.php?t=381340 ) it sounds nicer and runs better with them out, although there was also more exhaust work done around it.
 
#7 ·
Wow Mr. Black! all you wanted to know about filters but were to afraid to ask.

I just upgraded to a TF airbox it's simple upgrade for the F,about a third bigger, two intakes and to stop crap being dragged into my engine a standard aftermarket paper filter.I know it may not be as grand a solution as some have here but MGR must have had some idea what it was doing.:sofa:
 
#8 ·
The 2nd generation airbox is better than the 1st.
OEMs have to meet driveby noise regulations and also be mindful of people's tastes for a quiet refined sounding car. This requires a different approach to design.

My points above only really apply if you do not care about refinement and want brooooooooooom as well as a slight power hike, so your point is about MGR is very important.
 
#10 ·
Nice one

Thats good news/info Black.
The stockings filter was/is only a temporary measure, whilst i make my mind up with what i am doing.
As in, am i going to let some moths out of my wallet and buy a ITG panel filter, or am i going to go ahead and make my own foam panel filter or am I going to use a cone filter either enclosed(noisier) or enclosed (better'er).
The stockings are really only a safe guard to stop stones or leaves disappearing thru the butterfly.

If where happy that the Baffles are negligible in the the tuning/back pressure /tuning of the exhaust system then i might just get my angle grinder + welder out:naughty:
I will be keeping the cat in, as we need to save the tree's;)

BTW has anyone tried rooting a air feed from the front vents?
And i was thinking as the rear wheel liners are plastic and near the engine bay, has anyone put an air intake pipe , thru to behind the the rear wheel liner, in the rear bumper area? Maybe even at that nice mesh at back of bumper under the number plate?
 
#11 ·
Mr forgetfull

Aaah,
I knew i had forgot something.
If you keep the original TF airbox.
The question is.....
To de'baffle or not to de'baffle?
And also the intake tube entering the box, cut it down to present a larger surface area or not?
There is a previous post somewhere, were someone has cut the pipe down a bit like a feather quil? shape, if you know what i mean, with a dremel i tink.

Right I'm off to the garage to rub down julia
 
#12 ·
Google

Google no good!
I have just spent ages typing in different things on google, trying to find some solid facts/figures and information re airfilters/air intakes/enclosures/cold air etc,etc,etc.

I can hardly find anything, factual with proof/figures from professionals, most of the stuff you can find is from forums, which is mainly peoples opinions.
Now i am not saying peeps are wrong on forums, but i would like the real science behind it to read.

Same goes for turbo's, i would really like to read something that explains all about turbo's from a professionals stance.
Anyone know any good sources on net, or good books etc.
 
#13 ·
I'm sure you're not having a go at me per se, however my background is in designing competition engines for motorcycles, and then moved on to OEM car, gensets and pump engines. I've also done bits and pieces for DTM, F1 and monster trucks(!).

On that basis, assuming you're ok with my level of experience, I can tell you that there are only two ways to scientifically do inlet air management design: by very expensive simulation OR by very expensive testing.

Almost all high value work is done by a combination of both.

After that it's a man, in shed, looking at what fits and what he can get form ebay punctuated by visits to the local rolling road.

If you want to learn I can post a list of books on IC Engine thermodynamics and manifold design that you can study. If you indicate your level of engineering knowledge, HNC, Degree, time served, like the look of it, etc. i'll find you one to start off with and you can move from there.
 
#15 ·
Idea

Here's an idea!:hot:

How about a roll call of members, with qualifications/experience?
Forums are great places to learn things, but a lot of people participating are not experts within a field.
Myself above anyone else included.
So would be great to know who brings what to the game, and who is best suited to answer what(with the right if not most popular answer)

So how about we find out who is a mechanic on here, who is a tyre fitter/expert, who is a expert in quantum mechanics,etc etc.

On the XJS forum we had a guy called david marks who has a garage, and he was the forums technical guru.
Have we a F/TF guru mechanic?

Also something else that happened on JEC was there were workshops held, which amateur spanner jockeys, or upholsterers or whatever could pay to go and watch a sermon of there choice.

So for example Kayleigh/Dave could do a sermon/demonstration, to any of us deluded or perverse enough.
On how to do a head gasket replacement.
These lectures/open days were for a fee of course.
What do you think?
 
#16 ·
Now thats the idea

Now this i have just come across reminded me of an idea i had had before.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/STAINLESS...71575645?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item439b7e9f5d#ht_1601wt_782

So ok, not this exact thing but something similar, for example two cone filters located somewhere, for example one in each side of rear bumper, feeding into the throttle body?

Actually now i think about it, the existing air box does something like this already!? so maybe re'routing the air feeds with better pipes to a better location,larger bore pipes and a good panel filter would be the best option?
 
#17 ·
I'm wary of people setting themselves up as experts on the internet, including myself.
I've watched people be very nasty towards others on the basis that Member.X says ABC and that's the correct answer, and if you don't agree then you are wrong and bad and stupid, because he/she is an expert.

I prefer people to communicate their own experiences and opinions (hopefully based on facts) and then leave them to be commented on or be debated. Sometimes the fact will be stark enough that that will be the answer and the case can be closed. Sometimes it won't.

In my own postings I try to do this and fully expect that they will be regarded with scepticism by others, who if left with doubts will then be won round by any follow up explanation I provide as I expand on the facts or available data as best I can. And sometimes they won't. And sometimes I will be wrong. And sometimes there will be more than one answer. And sometimes (hopefully continually) I will learn.

So no, I do not second the 'guru' idea, i'm afraid. Sorry.


Air filters; Yes, multiple entries will help any system as the area with the highest pressure in the car's pressure field will be the preferential filter and if both are equal then you have the best chance of reducing pressure loss due to caking or manufacturing anomalies.
The rear bumper placement could be hit or miss - I say this as the area behind the rear wheel can be a high pressure area due to the wheel wash in the airflow, or it can be low pressure as it is attached to the low pressure area behind the car and dumps any HP to this LP area, so the filter, having some resistance to pressure, will not be fed well.
I honestly don't know as i've never considered it for these cars.
The heat flow around the exhaust may also be a drawback, although for the above reasons it should be cooler than engine bay flow.

I'll ponder it and may set up my differential pressure meter to measure it if I have a chance.
 
#19 ·
I run a Pipercross panel filter (brought direct from Pipercross) in standard MK2 MGF air box..

Like others, I fancy modding the air box to bond on a new larger inlet pipe and fibre glass a duct directly onto the air intake in the side of the car..

The pipercross panel filter is cheap at ÂŁ40 and fitted same time as my 52mm throttle body.. with noticeable difference.

K&N do a similar filter
 
#20 ·
I'll

I'll go along with that Adam!

To be honest i have never really been expecting to gain anything power wise thru changing my air filter setup.
Mainly for the reasons you pointed out, i am not going to start changing cams,porting heads etc.

Ideally i just want the car to breath better, and if it sounds nice to bonus, main objective is better breathing, re useable filter, and ideally no loss in power.
As you said if all i loose is 1bhp from the cone taking in warm or hot air from the engine bay, then thats no big loss.

One way or another though, i am going to try and get the best set up i can on a baked beans budget.

Might port/tidy up the throttle body with my dremel! that should cost nowt, and maybe do a bit of good for free.
 
#21 ·
Does it do owt?

So if i stick a inlet manifold from a 160 onto my 135 will it do owt?
And in doing so what else would i have to change?

Also wondering what difference does it make if you swap the head to a 160 head? Do you need to swap the ecu then?