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Here in Switzerland petrol has UP TO 5% ethanol, diesel UP TO 7% ethanol. There are concerns over using 10% ethanol so not signed off on yet. In addition, cold starting gets more difficult as more ethanol is introduced (and it can get cold here).

As with anything to do with alternatives, I do not see an open informed discussion going on. It all seems to be done by mandate with no regard to the next form of pollution creation. Personally, I am waiting for the day when a good part of our power is produced via wind, hydro, solar et al and then for me it is hydrogen (which takes electricity to produce) as the way forward.

As an aside, a Swiss journalist, as an experiment, went from Switzerland to Rome by electric car; it took him 4 days. Few working charging stations and when he found one, there were long queues. By combustion engine, it would have taken 10 hours.
 

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Personally, I am waiting for the day when a good part of our power is produced via wind, hydro, solar et al and then for me it is hydrogen (which takes electricity to produce) as the way forward.

As an aside, a Swiss journalist, as an experiment, went from Switzerland to Rome by electric car; it took him 4 days. Few working charging stations and when he found one, there were long queues. By combustion engine, it would have taken 10 hours.
TBH, I am a petrol head with a love for EV's too. So a bit biased, but very informed and hence able to balance reasons.

Re Hydrogen: Converting electricity into H2 with all the losses involved in the conversion process*, just to make the cars' H2-fuel cells feed a battery in the car that runs an electric motor, rather than going the direct way from electricity via battery into electric motor seems about as absurd and stupid as the journalist who entirely failed in his trip to rome....
*and if made from methan anything than environmentally friendly or carbon neutral. Most H2-advocates don't know about the conditions H2 requires for refuelling and the difficulties that result when many people want to refuel in short time. Believe me, battery re-charging times become a none-issue in comparison. etc etc etc

Re the journalists EV-trip to Rome: What electric vehicle did he take, so it took him 4 days?
This?
Wheel Tire Vehicle Motor vehicle Automotive design


I dared to make a route suggestion from Zurich to Rome in a Hyundai Ionic 28kWh (small battery capacity) which takes 11:30min including reloading times.
Sorry to say this, but to octuplicate this figure you gotta be really daft or willing to get a bad result.

 

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DidnT mean to be rude, just sarcastic. After reading the article, I'd say he is probably right about Italy, but the hemisphere north of Italy is sufficently equipped with charging stations already.

Secondly I strongly disagree with your statement about hydrogen refuelling and range. You seem to leave some issues unaccounted in this matter.
This is a very interesting and objective read - the quint-essence of it regarding your statement I have quoted below

Hydrogen car: That's why the technology won't catch on anytime soon (german write-up in CHIP.de)

Vereisende Zapfhähne, langsamer Druckaufbau
Beim Tanken machen die hohen Drücke in den Tankanlagen weitere Probleme: Der sehr stark verdichtete Wasserstoff strömt durch einen Zapfhahn ins Auto. Dabei treten große Druckunterschiede auf, was dazu führt, dass der Zapfhahn abkühlt und je nach Luftfeuchtigkeit vereist. Vor einem zweiten Tankvorgang muss die Zapfsäule erst wieder Druck aufbauen, die Zapfpistole muss abtauen. Mehr als sechs Autos pro Stunde kann eine solche Tankanlage (die mit rund einer Million Euro pro Installation sehr teuer ist) deshalb nicht abfertigen.

Icing taps, slow pressure build-up
When refueling, the high pressures in the tank systems cause further problems: The highly compressed hydrogen flows into the car through a tap. Large pressure differences occur, which means that the tap cools down and, depending on the humidity, freezes. Before refueling a second time, the fuel pump must first build up pressure again and the fuel nozzle must defrost. Such a tank system (which is very expensive at around one million euros per installation) cannot handle more than six cars per hour.
But actually this topic is about E10 ethanol fuel - "„The fuel of the future is going to come from fruit like that sumach out by the road, or from apples, weeds, sawdust – almost anything.“ Henry Ford, 1925.
Although if this is the case, we need to decide if we either feed our world population or transport it. There is not enough agricultural area to serve both purposes and the fertiliser required makes it neither environmental-friendly nor carbon neutral.
 

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Interesting article but it is easy for us to pontificate about EV - without following through ourselves on a core belief where we have one. Reports in the UK indicate that there is a massive electricity generation shortfall that will not meet government targets regarding EV uptake going forward. Ditto Switzerland where a fair percentage of its electricity comes from Germany (passing the buck...). This puts the kibosh on both battery and hydrogen until we can generate massive amounts of electricity without utilising fossil fuels.

The most practical solution today is to utilise more public transport (Switzerland in a good position here) and cut back on private car ownership (the UK and even Switzerland have too many cars on the road).

Personally, I utilise public transport where I can but my wife and I still own cars which sit in the garage most of the time.

There appears to be a belief by some that electric cars make them greener than the rest of us. Driving a 1998 MGF occasionally is a lot more green than someone driving a new electric car every day (as per a neighbour of mine).
 

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I perfectly agree with you in this matter Julian. Public transport and the end of individual car ownership (too much production pollution for a thing not in use most of the time (cue: embodied energy).

I still think that EV are currently the better solution to ICE-cars and provid a better basis for autonomous cars which will in the future supplement public transport. And I am sure either humanity gets electricity production (cue: de-centralised energy production and storage along with smart grids enabling bi-directional distribution) away in this decades long transition period or we are deservedly doomed any way because then we'd entirely failed as civilisation anyway.
 

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Re Hydrogen: Converting electricity into H2 with all the losses involved in the conversion process*, just to make the cars' H2-fuel cells feed a battery in the car that runs an electric motor, rather than going the direct way from electricity via battery into electric motor seems about as absurd and stupid as the journalist who entirely failed in his trip to rome....
It is more likely that it will be hydrogen fuelled internal combustion engines which come to the fore, rather than hydrogen fuel cells; this is certainly the direction in which things seem to be heading with heavy plant and probably HGVs too - JCB have already developed hydrogen fuelled versions of their engines, which are currently undergoing extensive testing in a variety of their machines. JCB appear to be getting further faster with hydrogen fuelled combustion engines than New Holland are with their hydrogen fuel cell powered tractors.

Having said that, there is more than one car maker whose designers see hydrogen fuel cells as the viable future, and view the current politically driven stampede for battery-electric as an unwelcome (and expensive) distraction.
 

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Hydrogen powered cars are best used with an internal combustion engine. The byproduct from the car is water. Glasgow University’s mechanical engineering team converted a Hilman imp back in the sixties. Interestingly BP bought the commercial rights. Several years ago the 00 car at the Le-Mans 24 hour race was internal combustion. I wish I could remember the year, but I remember the head of the ACO putting a cup below the exhaust pipe and then drinking the contents.
Currently there two large areas in England whose natural gas supply has been switched to Hydrogen gas. These test areas have been operating for over a year now with the customer being none the wiser.
My concern is how they make the hydrogen and how safe it is.
I keep thinking about the Hindenburg.
Sadly regardless of what we want, the future is going to see less petrol and Diesel cars. Personally I am to old to accept change.
In the winter up here we would be pulling the best part of 5 kWh just to keep the car inside warm and the windows free from ice and rain.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

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Simple answer:- the 4 to 5p extra cost puts some people off, yet no one seems to have questioned the at least 10p/ltr hike in the old ‘normal’ fuel costs since lockdown ended.m
 

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Why question something you can't change waste of time if you don't want to pay for E5 get a later car, if you don't want to pay for fuel get a EV problem solved
 

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Why question something you can't change waste of time if you don't want to pay for E5 get a later car, if you don't want to pay for fuel get a EV problem solved
That is exactly my view as well.
 

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TBH, I am a petrol head with a love for EV's too. So a bit biased, but very informed and hence able to balance reasons.

Re Hydrogen: Converting electricity into H2 with all the losses involved in the conversion process*, just to make the cars' H2-fuel cells feed a battery in the car that runs an electric motor, rather than going the direct way from electricity via battery into electric motor seems about as absurd and stupid as the journalist who entirely failed in his trip to rome....
*and if made from methan anything than environmentally friendly or carbon neutral. Most H2-advocates don't know about the conditions H2 requires for refuelling and the difficulties that result when many people want to refuel in short time. Believe me, battery re-charging times become a none-issue in comparison. etc etc etc

Re the journalists EV-trip to Rome: What electric vehicle did he take, so it took him 4 days?
This?
View attachment 137062

I dared to make a route suggestion from Zurich to Rome in a Hyundai Ionic 28kWh (small battery capacity) which takes 11:30min including reloading times.
Sorry to say this, but to octuplicate this figure you gotta be really daft or willing to get a bad result.

Please can I have my chair back?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

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yet no one seems to have questioned the at least 10p/ltr hike in the old ‘normal’ fuel costs since lockdown ended.
Only 10p litre hike...damn must be cheap near you, around by me petrol was £108.9 a litre in December 2020, its now £133.9, I know my time scale is slightly longer but at one stage last year (think it was early November) it went down to 99.9p a litre near me. The Tesco petrol station near where I live was increasing prices by 2p a litre twice a week just after lockdown and is now 3p a litre more than a local "branded" petrol station, I suppose "every little helps" their profits
 

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The depth of entrenched ignorance and a seeming total inability to take in the information being imparted on these E10 threads beggars belief.

E10 has been in use in some other countries for several years. Rover and MG Rover cars have been running perfectly well on it without any apparent ill effects during that time.

Forum member 'Dorchester' has been running a Rover 25 on E85 (85% bio-ethanol) for some time, again without ill effects.

Former Rover Group development engineer (might be more than one) have reportedly told people at the recent MGF25 event that all Rover Group petrol vehicles were E10 compatable by 1996 (see this thread on the-t-bar). This borne out by the statement from Land Rover who have given 1996 as the year from which petrol engined Land Rover products were E10 compatable (remember that Land Rover, Rover and MG were all part of Rover Group under the ownership of BMW at that time, and design and development for all brands was at that time carried out principally at Gaydon, so it is very unlikely that what goes for Land Rover would not apply to Rover/MG).

We have happily been running 5% ethanol petrol for some time without worrying about it. Why do some people think increasing that to 10% is suddenly going to cause almighty damage to their fuel systems that for some reason 5% wouldn't? What science are they basing that misconception upon?

Why does any MGF owner need to change to a newer car when their existing MGF is ethanol compatable.

Why do some people seem to think that they will have more condensation/water in fuel problems with E10 in an enclosed fuel system than with E5 - even left with a nearly empty tank for a long period, there is unlikely to be significantly more condensation/water contamination than you would get with standard petrol with no bio-ethanol in it in a similar situation.

Unbelievable!
 

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Only 10p litre hike...damn must be cheap near you, around by me petrol was £108.9 a litre in December 2020, its now £133.9, I know my time scale is slightly longer but at one stage last year (think it was early November) it went down to 99.9p a litre near me. The Tesco petrol station near where I live was increasing prices by 2p a litre twice a week just after lockdown and is now 3p a litre more than a local "branded" petrol station, I suppose "every little helps" their profits
Thanks Dert,
Of course, the price of fuel did go down to close to £1/ltr. in the troubled Covid times. However, the ‘normal’/ average price prior to the recent hike was indeed about 10p less than it is now.
 

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All I know is that I am out, driving my F, burning E10 fuel and not worrying about, have been since 2011, paying about £0.80/L. :)
 

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The depth of entrenched ignorance and a seeming total inability to take in the information being imparted on these E10 threads beggars belief.

E10 has been in use in some other countries for several years. Rover and MG Rover cars have been running perfectly well on it without any apparent ill effects during that time.

Forum member 'Dorchester' has been running a Rover 25 on E85 (85% bio-ethanol) for some time, again without ill effects.

Former Rover Group development engineer (might be more than one) have reportedly told people at the recent MGF25 event that all Rover Group petrol vehicles were E10 compatable by 1996 (see this thread on the-t-bar). This borne out by the statement from Land Rover who have given 1996 as the year from which petrol engined Land Rover products were E10 compatable (remember that Land Rover, Rover and MG were all part of Rover Group under the ownership of BMW at that time, and design and development for all brands was at that time carried out principally at Gaydon, so it is very unlikely that what goes for Land Rover would not apply to Rover/MG).

We have happily been running 5% ethanol petrol for some time without worrying about it. Why do some people think increasing that to 10% is suddenly going to cause almighty damage to their fuel systems that for some reason 5% wouldn't? What science are they basing that misconception upon?

Why does any MGF owner need to change to a newer car when their existing MGF is ethanol compatable.

Why do some people seem to think that they will have more condensation/water in fuel problems with E10 in an enclosed fuel system than with E5 - even left with a nearly empty tank for a long period, there is unlikely to be significantly more condensation/water contamination than you would get with standard petrol with no bio-ethanol in it in a similar situation.

Unbelievable!
We must be mindful that not everyone on this forum is an experienced, technical, knowledgeable owner/driver that has access to the same history or information.

Therefore, it is right that they feel empowered to discus these matters and seek the help and comments of others that can offer them the assistance they need.

If they feel awkward or unable to raise any issue, for fear of ridicule, the forum will see a further decline in numbers.
 
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I rather think that you have missed the point of my post - those with greater knowledge and/or understanding have indeed tried to pass on their reassurance to those who are less knowledgeable and confused about the issue in a number of threads on the subject scattered about the various model sections of the forum.

Despite this, some posters appear to be not listening, or are intent on perpetuating the myths and fallacies.

We must be mindful also that dissemination of bad advice and incorrect information will be equally damaging to the reputation of the forum, which will itself lead to a decline in numbers. My post was not intended to ridicule.
 
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