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De Cat VVC

2.9K views 21 replies 11 participants last post by  6709  
#1 ·
Hi


I received some good advice on here regarding my 97 VVC feeling sluggish. It turns out that the CAT has fallen apart and is blocking the exhaust gasses escaping.
So i am going to get a new CAT but i am now thinking of getting a De Cat pipe as well. But i have read a few things about them not helping the performance of the VVC. I have a normal back box.
Also are they really noisey?

Thanks

Neil
 
#4 ·
today at work i been thinking about decating my car. however i can take it to my local garage and get a pipe put in but isnt there a sensor to plug in. if i get the cat cut out and a pipe put in. will the engine light come on. or will it be ok. or do i need one of them mil elimintors. its for a 05reg tf 160, thanks
 
#6 ·
Why not go for the best of both, a sports cat? They are less restrictive then a standrad cat, but still produce an amount of back pressure, so still work with a VVC. The added bonus is that you will save a bit by only having to by one cat (rather then a cat & a decat) and you wont have to change cats come MOT time.

The only slight down side I have found is that sports cats dont last quite as long as the standrad cat. My sports cat is now 6 years old and has done around 70K miles and is in need of replacement.
 
#11 ·
Here's one of the articles

BACKPRESSURE: Resistance to air flow; usually stated in inches H2O or PSI.
DELTA PRESSURE (aka delta P): Describes the pressure drop through a component and is the difference in pressure between two points.

One other concept needs to be covered too, and that's the idea of air pressure vs. velocity. When a moving air column picks up speed, one of the weird things that happens is it’s pressure drops. So remember through all this that the higher the air velocity for a given volume of gas, the lower it's internal pressure becomes. And remember throughout all of this that I’m no mechanical engineer, simply an enthusiast who done all the reading he can. I don’t claim that this information is the absolute truth, just that it makes sense in my eyes.

Ok, so as you can see, backpressure is actually defined as the resistance to flow. So how can backpressure help power production at any RPM? IT CAN'T. I think the reason people began to think that pressure was in important thing to have at low RPM is because of the term delta pressure. Delta pressure is what you need to produce good power at any RPM, which means that you need to have a pressure DROP when measuring pressures from the cylinder to the exhaust tract (the term "pressure" is what I think continually confuses things). The larger the delta P measurement is, the higher this pressure drop becomes. And as earlier stated, you can understand that this pressure drop means the exhaust gas velocity is increasing as it travels from the cylinder to the exhaust system. Put simply, the higher the delta P value, the faster the exhaust gasses end up traveling. So what does all this mean? It means that it's important to have gas velocity reach a certain point in order to have good power production at any RPM (traditional engine techs sited 240 ft/sec as the magic number, but this is likely outdated by now).

The effect of having larger exhaust pipe diameters (in the primary, secondary, collector and cat-back exhaust tubes) has a direct effect on gas velocity and therefore delta P (as well as backpressure levels). The larger the exhaust diameter, the slower the exhaust gasses end up going for a given amount of airflow. Now the ***** of all this tech is that one exhaust size will not work over a large RPM range, so we are left with trying to find the best compromise in sizing for good low RPM velocity without hindering higher RPM flow ability. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that an engine flows a whole lot more air at 6000 RPM than at 1000 RPM, and so it also makes sense that one single pipe diameter isn't going to acheive optiaml gas velocity and pressure at both these RPM points, given the need to flow such varying volumes.

These concepts are why larger exhaust piping works well for high RPM power but hurts low RPM power; becuase is hurts gas velocity and therefore delta P at low RPM. At higher RPM however, the larger piping lets the engine breath well without having the exhuast gasses get bundled up in the system, which would produce high levels of backpressure and therefore hurt flow. Remember, managing airflow in engines is mainly about three things; maintaining laminar flow and good charge velocity, and doing both of those with varying volumes of air. Ok, so now that all this has been explained, let's cover one last concept (sorry this is getting so long, but it takes time to explain things in straight text!).

This last concept is why low velocity gas flow and backpressure hurt power production. Understand that during the exhaust stroke of a 4 stroke engine, it's not only important to get as much of the spent air/fuel mixture out of the chamber (to make room for the unburnt mixture in the intake system), it's also important that these exhaust gasses never turn around and start flowing back into the cylinder. Why would this happen? Because of valve overlap, that's why. At the end of the exhaust stroke, not only does the piston start moving back down the bore to ingest the fresh mixture, but the intake valve also opens to expose the fresh air charge to this event. In modern automotive 4 stroke engines valve overlap occurs at all RPM, so for a short period of time the exhaust system is open to these low pressure influences which can suck things back towards the cylinder. if the exhaust gas velocity is low and pressure is high in the system, this will make everything turn around and go the opposite direction it's supposed to. If these gasses reach the cylinder they will dilute the incoming mixture with unburnable gasses and take up valuable space within the combustion chamber, thus lowering power output (and potentially pushing the intake charge temp beyond the fuel’s knock resistance). So having good velocity and therefore low pressure in the system is absolutely imperative to good power production at any RPM, you just have to remember that these concepts are also dependent on total flow volume. The overall volume of flow is important because it is entirely possible to have both high velocity and high pressure in the system, if there is simply not enough exhaust piping to handle the needed airflow.

It’s all about finding a compromise to work at both high and low RPM on most cars, but that’s a bit beyond the scope of this post. All I am trying to show here is how the term backpressure is in reference to a bad exhaust system, not one that creates good low RPM torque. You can just as easily have backpressure at low RPM too, which would also hurt low RPM cylinder scavenging and increase the potential for gas reversion. And understand that these tuning concepts will also affect cam timing, though that is again probably beyond the scope of this post. At any rate, hope this helps, peace.
 
#13 ·
Thanks Dark Knight. Good article, this is why I was told by the "Exhaustman" all those years ago that you need to keep the diameter constant from the collector through to the exit. hence the 57mm standard size. He also said to remove as many obstructions as you can such as chambering, unnecessary lips burs or bends, Y junctions also count.

The gas exiting from each cylinder exhaust stroke are called "shots" these create a pressure wave which unless you have a tuned 2 stroke you are probably better of without reflecting back up the pipe.

The OEM manifold on the MGF and other K series instalations I have seen since 1995 is actually pretty good.

Only one way to test this out .
Get a car with a decat run it on a rolling road, and then do the same test with the same car cat on. My money is on the cat eating some bhp, if the cat is good and new it should be only a very few. If it is old choked or collapsing it could be many!
 
#14 ·
the decat actually gained 5bhp and also 5lbs torque (think units are right), and thats on the tf160. the test was carried out by myromeo while ago, however he wasnt happy with the car so went to a sports cat. its something that you may want to try as cars are not the same. some cars decrease bhp whilst overs increase its 6 and to 3's
 
#15 ·
I have tried decatting the vvc and realized that after a while it got sluggish (this can just be a placebo i am not sure) and moreover it stinks when you stop at lights. Went for a sports cat, as Steve says this is best of the both worlds, i felt more performance and even though it is not as loud as decatting it is still louder than the standard cat and pops greatly.
 
#16 ·
KrisFX got an increase in BHP on a rolling road day we had after fitting a decat to his VVC trophy F but others have had power loss in the same circumstances so who knows.....

Incidentally, i have 2 decats for sale if anyone wants a cheap one. I have one S/S Miltek, and a mild steel one. Both in great nick - the mild steel one's never been used.
 
#20 ·
The MGF's exhaust system is made up of 4 parts, the manifold, the downpipe, the cat and the silencer.
What you need is a decat and a silencer (also commonly referred to as a 'back box').

On front engined cars, there is a mid section in the exhuast between the cat and silencer, and when this part is sold together with the silencer its called a 'system' or 'cat back' system. The F doesn't have this mid section, so the ref to system may mean cat & silencer, but I would clarify with the seller just what they mean by system.