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Found out today at the press conference @ LB.

The Chinese have bought the IP rights to the 25 75 (although not the tourer) & the technical rights for the K Series, although no production equipment - so they can't produce it. Same with the 25/75.

However, MGR have the right to buy the IPR back off the Chinese at any time, for the money they were paid for them. So *if* another company comes in and wants to buy the whole company, they can also buy back the IPR.

Just thought that may be of interest...
 

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These aren't exclusive rights the Chinese have bought are they - meaning MGR can still make the 25/75 and K engines despite the fact that they have sold the rights to SAIC?

If MGR have the right to buy it all back I wonder if SAIC have the rights to hand it all back too. If not it looks like MGR have done well out of this, as they've sold something not particularly useful to the Chinese :)
 

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rover_75
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As I said in a previous thread, the law in this country is very strict regarding IPR and also the sale and disclosure of IPR to other firms, the clause is standard.

SAIC once they consult their lawyers will know this.

Also, due to BMW tied into their deal with China Brilliance they will not be eager to be seen to assist a major competitor.

Therefore it is in SAIC's interest to secure the IPR and plant from MG Rover NOT anyone else. Only now, administrators will be haggling on the deal as well as the British Government. The administrators also have a public disclosure obiligation if assets have to be sold.

So doubly not good for SAIC and the Government knows that a cheap deal will not wash with the electorate.

SAIC have £67m worth of nothing at the moment, if they have no plant, it would costs hundreds of millions to buy new.
 

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parsec said:
These aren't exclusive rights the Chinese have bought are they - meaning MGR can still make the 25/75 and K engines despite the fact that they have sold the rights to SAIC?
This is the crux, I think. Among many!
Does anyone know for sure whether they sold the exclusive rights (in which case, has MGR been operating under licence from SAIC since last year?) or just 'rights'?
 

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rover_800
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parsec said:
These aren't exclusive rights the Chinese have bought are they - meaning MGR can still make the 25/75 and K engines despite the fact that they have sold the rights to SAIC?

If MGR have the right to buy it all back I wonder if SAIC have the rights to hand it all back too. If not it looks like MGR have done well out of this, as they've sold something not particularly useful to the Chinese :)


Well if there is a new generation K-Series in the Wings I don't think losing the old K is so bad. I wonder if MG-R have the right to make spares for the older Non Euro IV compliant engine.

As far as the 25 goes, again if there is a Re Skin in the works won't this with the revised engine technically be a New car. Could MG-R build it then?

The 75 is also rumoured to be in line for a serious re-working in the next year? (Some interior bits supposedly previewed in the Coupe Concept) Once again Would this be a new car?

And finally does MG-R Now have the option of getting loans and subsidies under EU law. Someone said that if the money is basically for a new car (product) and it will guarantee the company won't go under,then you can get subsidies. Hopefully this is true.
 

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The latest reports alledge that the Chinese will not negotiate with an insolvent firm, ie MGR. SO how will they use what they have bought? I would imagine that they are wary of returning to the table because any further deal on presses or tooling will have a catch- that some work continues at Longbridge, otherwise whats the point of PwC? Any money raised from selling equipment will be a drop in the ocean compared to whats needed by the West Midlands now.
Also SAIC wanted modern technology. Now although the 25 & 75 are modern compared to other vehicles in their stable, they are still far from new- I thought they wanted RD60??

And where are P4 now? Are they helping PwC? Keiths site mentions rumours that they still want to be involved in the future of the firm- that'll be a tricky one. Mind you, if I were Hewitt and Blair, I would be being very nice to them at the moment- Hewitts mistake on Thursday could cost the Government dear. The fact remains she broadcast to the nation on live TV that MGR had called in the receivers. At that point, all remaining goodwill or credit earned by MGR evapourated, and it simply wasn't true. It was also not her job to say so. The laws of libel are quite clear- any damages can be directly linked to the loss suffered by the injured party. If MGR had a chance of sorting things out with Wagon on the Friday, and if they still had valid credit in the supply channel, they can feasibly claim damages to that value, plus money to cover the collapse of the business. This could, in theory, cost the Government many Millions in damages to PVH, after all, it was PVHs wholly-owned asset that was ruined. PVH could walk away with enough for a new MG facility to get RD60 going....
 

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Stephen K. Hone said:
Well if there is a new generation K-Series in the Wings I don't think losing the old K is so bad. I wonder if MG-R have the right to make spares for the older Non Euro IV compliant engine.

As far as the 25 goes, again if there is a Re Skin in the works won't this with the revised engine technically be a New car. Could MG-R build it then?

The 75 is also rumoured to be in line for a serious re-working in the next year? (Some interior bits supposedly previewed in the Coupe Concept) Once again Would this be a new car?

And finally does MG-R Now have the option of getting loans and subsidies under EU law. Someone said that if the money is basically for a new car (product) and it will guarantee the company won't go under,then you can get subsidies. Hopefully this is true.
Surely it's not that simple. Any updated R75 or K engine is going to be heavily based on the original intellectual property and the Chinese now own this. Therefore it would not be allowed, unless the deal was more of a licensing deal than an exclusive transfer of rights.

This is all a bit cloak and dagger if you ask me, apparently this all took place in December but at the time no-one said anything about the car platforms just the engines.
 

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mg_zt
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Legality of the SAIC Phoenix IP transaction

This is what I wrote to the Administrators and govt:

"I would also ask that you bring in the legal team you have appointed, to look into whether the contract signed to hand over the IP assets to SAIC can be rescinded, terminated or treated as illegal. The transfer of these IP assets was meant to be part of a full framework agreement executed in stages, and not as a one off transaction. The other parts of the agreement were not followed through. It was also made potentially by parties who did not have the best intentions. I believe there may be a number of legal precedents which could put a stop on this happening. Also, is it legal for directors to sell assets to a third party where the underlying entity (MG Rover) is technically insolvent? Liabilities exceeded assets in this company by £336m apparently in 2004."

 

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Sunbeam Man said:
This is what I wrote to the Administrators and govt:

"I would also ask that you bring in the legal team you have appointed, to look into whether the contract signed to hand over the IP assets to SAIC can be rescinded, terminated or treated as illegal. The transfer of these IP assets was meant to be part of a full framework agreement executed in stages, and not as a one off transaction. The other parts of the agreement were not followed through. It was also made potentially by parties who did not have the best intentions. I believe there may be a number of legal precedents which could put a stop on this happening. Also, is it legal for directors to sell assets to a third party where the underlying entity (MG Rover) is technically insolvent? Liabilities exceeded assets in this company by £336m apparently in 2004."



I was trying to get your main point (or something along those lines) across yesterday, but you have explained it much better than I did. As you say if all of these transfers were part off a much bigger overall arrangement, e.g. Steps toward completing the full deal then perhaps SAIC lose everything. Except their money of course. However surely they would lose some of this money for any work MG-R has peformed on their behalf??
 

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They would be please to have the technical right for the K-series.

Yup, but having spoken to someone who previously worked in Powertrain, he rated SAIC's chances of building the K Series without MGR's co-operation as 'somewhere between nil and impossible'. In short, they need MGR engineers to help them build the production line, nevermind the engine... and I am sure PWC know it.

John
 

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JohnSwitzer said:
They would be please to have the technical right for the K-series.

Yup, but having spoken to someone who previously worked in Powertrain, he rated SAIC's chances of building the K Series without MGR's co-operation as 'somewhere between nil and impossible'. In short, they need MGR engineers to help them build the production line, nevermind the engine... and I am sure PWC know it.

John


Well If they would be pleased then on this "K-Series" issue, If they really want it, then perhaps they are the ones over the barrel not MG-R??
 

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I wouldn't say they are over a barrel. I am sure they have plenty of other options to explore. However, without a fully functioning MGR, I don't see a K Series engine being produced in China any time soon.

Regards

John
 

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JohnSwitzer said:
I wouldn't say they are over a barrel. I am sure they have plenty of other options to explore. However, without a fully functioning MGR, I don't see a K Series engine being produced in China any time soon.

Regards

John

Right that was my point John. If SAIC want this engine then they need to at least have discussions on this matter. However now details are starting to emerge it does not look so much like MG-R were giving everything away to be left with nothing. They had next generation stuff ready to roll. If this is the case, I would think the tooling for the new K is already made/was being made, and perhaps is already at Powertrain waiting to be installed??
 

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dont bet on it you lot. The chinese can work miracles when they want to. If they are legally allowed to do it, and they have a set of drawings, K-series motors could be pouring out of a factory we didnt even know they had, in a matter of weeks. Where we would put one man on a certain project/task, they will put 50. I am praying for the following.

1) that if they have bought the rights to build these engines/cars, that they are for the chinese market only. Thus not an immediate concern for MGR globally.
2) That if The P4 have flogged off their own company's product range for £67m, that MGR have the option to buy it back for exactly this amount should they feel like it/uncover a load of money stuffed in a mattress, Ken Dodd-style.
3) By selling the IPR, MGR have not waived their own right to carry on developing/making/selling these products as they see fit, at least within Europe. if they have, the P4 have committed what I would consider to be the worst treachery in modern industrial history.
 

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Mr_Censored said:
dont bet on it you lot. The chinese can work miracles when they want to. If they are legally allowed to do it, and they have a set of drawings, K-series motors could be pouring out of a factory we didnt even know they had, in a matter of weeks. Where we would put one man on a certain project/task, they will put 50. I am praying for the following.

1) that if they have bought the rights to build these engines/cars, that they are for the chinese market only. Thus not an immediate concern for MGR globally.
2) That if The P4 have flogged off their own company's product range for £67m, that MGR have the option to buy it back for exactly this amount should they feel like it/uncover a load of money stuffed in a mattress, Ken Dodd-style.
3) By selling the IPR, MGR have not waived their own right to carry on developing/making/selling these products as they see fit, at least within Europe. if they have, the P4 have committed what I would consider to be the worst treachery in modern industrial history.

Yeah I would hope most of that to. However as clever as the Chinese are, they could not get a K-Series in production working and be reliable in such a short time. No way. A year perhaps, Weeks not a chance. They'd do better to have someone design them a whole new engine, and start from scratch.
 

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Oh and one more thing with regards to what I wrote above abiut PVH having a possible libel case against the Government- they could also try and recover the full damages from the person responsible- it can be an individual case. So Hewitt herself may end up being sued for £300million or something....:idea:
 
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