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mg_zr
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Atmos said:
The Chinese will ask what the price of something is, and their next question is: Why is it so expensive? Everything from outside China is expensive for them. Looking at the costs, it´s no question that they will produce all possible parts in China. But it´s the same with the development work - after they know how to do it, they will do it on their own.
Going by that logic, Proton should be preparing to ditch Lotus, now that they've designed a new engine range for them and shown them how to design and develop their own cars. But it really isn't that simple, remember that SAIC has NO indigenous design or development capability, and this isn't something that you can set up or learn overnight. Look how long it took the Koreans to learn how to produce internationally competetive cars (some would argue that they still haven't).

Assuming SAIC does intend to use MG Rover as a design and development consultant, they'll be in need of its services for considerably more than a few years, possibly for as many as 25-30 years. There's a HUGE difference between building someone else's already designed car and having the capability to design and develop your own - a capability than can take decades to cultivate.

Also, if SAIC have any sense, and any real ambitions on the international market then they'll realise that cars built down to a price may be acceptable in a developing market such as China, where price is the primary concern governing car buying decisions, but would be entirely unacceptable to European, American and Japanese consumers (look at the British reaction to the CityRover as an example), markets where style, quality and engineering are of far more relevance than price. If they keep that fact in mind, then they may realise that things are so expensive because they have to be designed and manufactured to a very high standard in order to appeal to Western customers, and doing that costs money.
 

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There seems to be a lot of paranoia around here regarding SAIC and its evil machinations regarding MGRs future. I myself am not that worried about it. I mean really, how much BMW style capitalist pig-dog corporate shafting occurs in the worlds largest remaining communist state? Or how are they going to be the worlds sixth largest auto maker, if they can't export any cars because they are MGR rip offs? Why would an auto manufacturer that is essentially a government department with the brief of "make consumables and employ as many people as you can" going to buy and shut a factory that is effectively 60% owned by the workforce? Not good socialist propaganda is it? China maybe reforming slowly and allowing what superficially appears to be something akin to a free market economy to develop, but under the surface it is still a communist country, with an interest is promoting public owned buisness over regulated private ones. I do not think it would be feasable to "merge" the two companies.
 

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Carwash said:
There seems to be a lot of paranoia around here regarding SAIC and its evil machinations regarding MGRs future. I myself am not that worried about it. I mean really, how much BMW style capitalist pig-dog corporate shafting occurs in the worlds largest remaining communist state? Or how are they going to be the worlds sixth largest auto maker, if they can't export any cars because they are MGR rip offs? Why would an auto manufacturer that is essentially a government department with the brief of "make consumables and employ as many people as you can" going to buy and shut a factory that is effectively 60% owned by the workforce? Not good socialist propaganda is it? China maybe reforming slowly and allowing what superficially appears to be something akin to a free market economy to develop, but under the surface it is still a communist country, with an interest is promoting public owned buisness over regulated private ones. I do not think it would be feasable to "merge" the two companies.
China is pseudo-communist, unlike the communism of the Soviet Union.

I think we should be worried about the prospect of a SAIC take over. SAIC is a state owned company and China is very much a state-controlled nation, and an ambition one at that. The Chinese government is very good at censoring its people (BBC ), restricting religions (BBC ), shutting down political opponents, and generally limiting free speech. How else do you keep a billion people under control. They are also relatively aggressive taking over Tibet and continually threatening Taiwan (BBC )(Taiwan is haunted everyday by many Chinese missiles aimed at their country).

This is just stuff that we have all heard on the news it isn't ground breaking.

And your socialise line Cashwash is a bit rich considering the Chinese get paid bugger all and the gap between rich and poor is every increasing (BBC ).


SAIC is ambition ..... I am just worried that MG-Rover will become a feather in their cap.
 

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And your socialise line Cashwash is a bit rich considering the Chinese get paid bugger all and the gap between rich and poor is every increasing (BBC ).
The above post does not reflect my political leanings and I do not see that a car forum is the right place to go about promoting ideologies, political or economic. I was just trying to illustrate the point that you can't compare SAIC to any other foreign (to me that is) car company as it is more or less a public utility and not governed by the same "grow, make money or die" darwinian rules that most other manufacturers are subjected to in a free market economy. It is not likely to become a merger partner as some people have suggested for the same reasons, would the Pheonix Four really benefit from having shares in Shanghai county council?
As for the growing gap between rich and poor in China, I do really feel for them and I feel that the Chinese gevernment should be taking steps to address this problem. However as I am currently an Engineer working in the British manufacturing sector I really do have more pressing problems closer to home to be dealing with. MGR are not the only company in the UK to suffer from lack of investment and poor management.
 

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mg_zr
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Nickstar75 said:
(Taiwan is haunted everyday by many Chinese missiles aimed at their country).
And China is haunted everyday by the numerous American naval vessels stationed between it and Taiwan, with missiles pointed at China. It's also haunted by the suspicion with which the rest of the world treats it - has China no right to ambition? Is the right to ambition exclusively a phenomenon to be enjoyed by Americans and Western Europeans?
 

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haudit23 said:
And China is haunted everyday by the numerous American naval vessels stationed between it and Taiwan, with missiles pointed at China. It's also haunted by the suspicion with which the rest of the world treats it - has China no right to ambition? Is the right to ambition exclusively a phenomenon to be enjoyed by Americans and Western Europeans?
I didn't post those BBC articles for fun. Of course China has every right to be ambitious.... have I said otherwise? But at what cost to the Chinese people.
Millions of Chinese people work for next to nothing while the government spends billions developing a space programme.
Many Chinese don't have a voice in their government due to the hard-line approach the government has with political opponents.
When the Chinese Premier came to New Zealand a bus had to be parked in front of protestors so the Premier wouldn't see them. G W Bush gets protests where ever he goes... not body tries to stops them.
Back in the 1960 or 70s China was all set to invade Taiwan and the only thing that stopped them was the fact the US sailed one of their fleets just off the Taiwanese coast. So Taiwan owes its freedom to the US.

Some people yearn for the day when China becomes a superpower to rival the US. But a superpower which isn't a true democracy doesn’t sound to appealing to me. And my Chinese mates concur…. that is why they came to NZ.
 

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China has a right to ambition, and Taiwan has the right to remain independant. Taipei has never ever been a part of China, so how dare any government in Beijing lay claim to it in any way. Making threats and sabre rattling simply show how even after 50 years they are still bitter that some of the "enemy" got away and so greedy for anything that the pre maoist government had that they will keep on trying to seize it for decades after they won what they were fighting for - that being control of China.
 

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PatrickT said:
Taipei has never ever been a part of China, so how dare any government in Beijing
The statement "Taipei has never ever been a part of China" is incorrect.
In the Chinese history, Taiwan was in the territory of the Chinese empire, at least between the period after the Chinese invaded Taiwan to force the Dutch out of their occupation over Taiwan and when China lost Taiwan to Japan in the 19th C.
IMO, Taiwan should be a part of China, and not be independant.

This isn't really the place to discuss politcal issues. MAY ME MOVE BACK TO THE TOPIC PLEASE? At lease try to make it car related. Many thanks.
 

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The U.S has China on a leash....China is NOT a superpower and I am sure the U.S will continue to make sure it doesn't become one. We don't need another Soviet Union, and I don't know of anyone who yearns that China becomes a superpower to rival the U.S...that would be stupid..but I do know alot of people who worry it will!
 

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75Lover said:
The U.S has China on a leash....China is NOT a superpower and I am sure the U.S will continue to make sure it doesn't become one. We don't need another Soviet Union, and I don't know of anyone who yearns that China becomes a superpower to rival the U.S...that would be stupid..but I do know alot of people who worry it will!
Being a superpower is not the top of the list for the Chinese, IMO.

For those who didn't know, from the late 19th C to mid 20th C, China was literally robbed from the Russians, British, Americans, Japaneses, Germans, French, Dutch and Italians; known as the Eight Countries Alliance Forces; which is the one of the worst thing that happened to the Chinese people, next to Japanese occupation in the 1930s and 40s. Those events are the biggest dents in Chinese's national pride.
Chinese people want their nation to be great again and rises like a Dragon mainly because they want to regain respect from the world (esp. from those countries who surpressed her), to be a nation that others looks upon by others rather than a nations disregarded by others. Becoming a superpower to rival the likes of USA is not the first reason they want to be great again, I feel.
 

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Interesting comments and thoughts Andy. China in my opinion is a fascinating country and a very diverse country too.

I am baffled though as to why the Chinese feel the need to rise like a dragon and become respected - as (aside perhaps from the system of government, which IMHO is a matter for the Chinese people and nobody else), I haven't really met anyone who disrespects of disregards China. Indeed, if anything, most people admire the Chinese nation in my experience.

John
 

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IMO, Taiwan should be a part of China, and not be independant.

Surely is that not a matter exclusively for the people of Taiwan to determine?

John
 

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JohnSwitzer said:
Interesting comments and thoughts Andy. China in my opinion is a fascinating country and a very diverse country too.

I am baffled though as to why the Chinese feel the need to rise like a dragon and become respected - as (aside perhaps from the system of government, which IMHO is a matter for the Chinese people and nobody else), I haven't really met anyone who disrespects of disregards China. Indeed, if anything, most people admire the Chinese nation in my experience.

John
Interesting that. Chinese people still feel they are being taken advantage of by other countries one way or other. :: cough :: US of A
I think there is a general feeling that "to raise like a dragon" is to: ie. get rid of the Third World/Developing countries label and on par with the UK and US.

JohnSwitzer said:
Andy: IMO, Taiwan should be a part of China, and not be independant.

Surely is that not a matter exclusively for the people of Taiwan to determine?

John
And do you think the same should apply for people of NI?
:bgrin: Similar situation for UK/Republic of Ireland regarding Northern Ireland, really.
 

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You only have to look at Hong Kong to see what the Chinese are capable of when given a bit of autonomy. I think it was so short sighted of the British Government not to give full British passports to each and every Hong Kong Chinese citizen in 1997.
 

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king arthur said:
I think it was so short sighted of the British Government not to give full British passports to each and every Hong Kong Chinese citizen in 1997.
I should be so flattered.
At least you got me (a British passport holder from Hong Kong), Tom! :lol:
Oh, the joy of dual nationality. :D

I am shortslighted too, not just the British Gov, if you wants any consolations. =p
 

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And do you think the same should apply for people of NI?

It does apply in Northern Ireland.

If a majority of people decide that they no longer wish to be a part of the United Kingdom, then they are free to leave and to become part of the Republic of Ireland or choose an alternative future for themselves.. and rightly so in my opinion.

Similarly with Gibraltar. If a majority of Gibraltarians ever decide that they wish to become part of Spain or to choose independence, then they are free to do so.

Indeed, the same options exist for any UK dependent territory - of which there are around a dozen.... though curiously not for Scotland, Wales or even Cornwall :err:

John
 
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