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Discussion Starter #1
Hi guys,

hope someone can help!

I am having to change all of the air con pipes and compressor and condensor on my wifes Kia Sedona but i think this will be much the same for any make of car. These parts need to be replaced due to leaking refigerant, this is at great cost so i am doing the labour to save a bit.

My problem is that i am unsure what to do regarding the oil for the whole system. I have read somewhere that you must drain the oil out of the old compressor, then do the same with the new one and add oil to the new compressor at the same amount as the old one (wow, now i'm confused). Is this right?

Can't i just put the compressor on with all of the other parts then get it regassed as i'm sure that they add oil to the system also. THIS site also mentions the oil proceedure but reading it sounds easier than putting it into practice.

There must be some one that has some info on this subject as the compressors must have been chaged on someone's Rover? Surely the proceedure is the same for all makes of car?

Any help is much appreciated

TIA
 

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rover_45
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No I dont mind you PMing me at all. Kia's, not my cup of tea but the Sedona is a good car, that and the old Rio I would have.

Did a few months at a Kia dealership in Chesterfield when we first set it up.

As for A/C, just replace all the pipework and O rings and take it to an A/C specialist for them to add the gas and oil at the correct level.

They to can vacume the air out of the system as thats what reuins the reciver/dries and they too can pressure test it at the same time.

Infact Kwik Twit will do it for £44.95. No fill no charge so no loss there.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Hi Sejin26, thanks for getting back to me so quickly.

I originally went to Kwik Fit last year to have it gassed and this year it has all gone. Went to another garage as KF doesn't do leaks and they put the dye in and i could see that everything was leaking and unfortunatley, you can't just buy the seals on their own, you have to buy the pipes to get the seals. You'd never guess how much just the parts alone are going to cost!

As far as i know KF doesn't put the dye in, which is why they are so cheap, so this doesn't help to look for leaks.

So you think that i could just fit everything together then get it regassed? This is what the link in my post above says not to do, this is why i'm confused. Do the compressors come pre primed with the oil or is it in a sachet or something for you to add? As you can tell i'm tryin to gather as muh information before i do the job because the compressor is costing £340 alone so don't want to FUBAR it.

Thanks again for your help, it's much appreciated.
 

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rover_45
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I am not an A/C expert but from what I gather an A/C place should prssure test any system before filling it up. Thats the exact same as a leak test. They might use dye or not but they should use nitrious oxide to test it.

As for the oil thats sort of mixed into the charge that they buy in big gas bottles. You dont add it when you have the compressor in your hand or anything. It gets put in with the gas charge.

As for filling is striaght up after changing the pipes. I dont see why not. If the O rings are new and the pipes are to there should be no leaks.

Just dont think you can use a Halfords/Internet cheap refil kit, this need to be done by the propper equipment.

I can guess how much its cost for the pipes, but I wont as I am sure you dont need a reminder.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I am not an A/C expert but from what I gather an A/C place should prssure test any system before filling it up. Thats the exact same as a leak test. They might use dye or not but they should use nitrious oxide to test it.
Yes, they are meant to but obviously without standing there watching them, you never know what they are doing.

As for the oil thats sort of mixed into the charge that they buy in big gas bottles. You dont add it when you have the compressor in your hand or anything. It gets put in with the gas charge.
This is actually what i originally thought until reading that the oil needs to be distributed around the system before regassing. Quick question, not sure if you'd know, but do they regass it with the compressor running? The reason i ask is that there wouldn't be any oil in the compressor until the gas went through it (if that makes sense).

As for filling is striaght up after changing the pipes. I dont see why not. If the O rings are new and the pipes are to there should be no leaks.
Fingers crossed

Just dont think you can use a Halfords/Internet cheap refil kit, this need to be done by the propper equipment.
Oh no mate, i'm spending a lot of money on the parts so a bit more on regassing won't make much difference. I was going to get it properly gassed up from the beginning, this is something that i wouldn't want to do myself.

I can guess how much its cost for the pipes, but I wont as I am sure you dont need a reminder.
Your guess would probably be right, very expensive but getting them courtesy of my flexible friend ;)

Thanks for your comments. Wonder if there are any AC experts on this forum? Would always be handy to have an expert from all professions on here, don't you think?


Cheers.
 

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rover_45
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The compressor wont kick in till the right amount of gas is in to build the pressure up. Plus with the correct filling the pipe is connected directly to the compressor so it would only run with no oil for a few seconds which I wouldnt have thought is enough to damage it.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Aha, that is a good point, now why didn't i think of that?

Thanks again, this has put my mind at rest.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Just to add to this, i just received an email from an airconditioning company that i emailed earlier today about this issue as it may help someone else in the same situation i'm in.

All compressors we supply come with oil, however, if supplied elsewhere you
need to check. Easy to do, basically open and covers to the inlet and outlet
points on the compressor (where you attach the pipes) and turn with your
hand the very end of the clutch plate, not the pulley itself but the end of
the compressor. IT should turn with your hand, though maybe stiff. If oil
comes out of one of the holes then it's full, if not, then add oil into one
of the holes and keep turning till it comes out the other. A universal
compressor oil should be ok, and you maybe able to get some from somewhere
like 'car spares' or similar.

It is important to ensure you get oil into the compressor as without it can
seize, debris from which circulates around the system blocking the expansion
valve and damaging the drier. This is why we say check the oil and if the
previous compressor had seized you need to flush the system to remove any
debris and also change the expansion valve. Otherwise debris from the seized
compressor again gets back into the new one and seizes that one too, thereby
invalidating the warranty.

Hope that helps
 

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Mmmm....Rover..
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When I fitted my aircon the correct amount of PAG oil was poured directly into the compressor (previously fully drained). This is the MG-R procedure when replacing a compressor.

The system was then closed, pressure tested with dry Nitrogen, vacuumed down and then charged with refrigerant.

The oil is primarily for compressor lubrication, however the oil does get dispersed throughout the system but the correct amount remains in the compressor sump.
The oil is not needed to be dispersed before the gassing.

It is quite normal to run the compressor to "force" the system to accept the full charge of refrigerant.

If you want to do a bit of reading then beg, borrow or steal a copy of this....

http://www.haynes.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=39551&langId=-1
 

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rover_45
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When I fitted my aircon the correct amount of PAG oil was poured directly into the compressor (previously fully drained). This is the MG-R procedure when replacing a compressor.

The system was then closed, pressure tested with dry Nitrogen, vacuumed down and then charged with refrigerant.

The oil is primarily for compressor lubrication, however the oil does get dispersed throughout the system but the correct amount remains in the compressor sump.
The oil is not needed to be dispersed before the gassing.

It is quite normal to run the compressor to "force" the system to accept the full charge of refrigerant.

If you want to do a bit of reading then beg, borrow or steal a copy of this....

http://www.haynes.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=39551&langId=-1
There is your answer, Paul knows more about A/C then he is letting on:broon:
 

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Discussion Starter #11
When I fitted my aircon the correct amount of PAG oil was poured directly into the compressor (previously fully drained). This is the MG-R procedure when replacing a compressor.

The system was then closed, pressure tested with dry Nitrogen, vacuumed down and then charged with refrigerant.

The oil is primarily for compressor lubrication, however the oil does get dispersed throughout the system but the correct amount remains in the compressor sump.
The oil is not needed to be dispersed before the gassing.

It is quite normal to run the compressor to "force" the system to accept the full charge of refrigerant.

If you want to do a bit of reading then beg, borrow or steal a copy of this....

http://www.haynes.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=39551&langId=-1
Thanks Technozen for replying.

When you fitted your compressor was that a new unit or second hand? As i guess a second hand unit would not have the oil already in it.

Can i ask where you got the oil from if you had to get it yourself, is it easily available? I am getting the compressor from the Kia main dealer as this is the only place that seems to do them for the Sedona so hopefully should come with the oil, i hope, did they when they came from MGR or was that something extra to be bought and added?

When you say to 'force' the compressor, what does this entail?

Sorry for all of the questions still, i just want to get it right.

Thanks again :)
 

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Mmmm....Rover..
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New compressors should come filled with the correct amount and grade of oil, it will be sealed and pressurised with Nitrogen.

The PAG oil is highly hygroscopic (absorbs moisture) and should not be exposed to the atmosphere for any period other than filling or assembling the compressor connections.

I bought my PAG oil from an ebay seller, the oil has UV dye already added.

Here is an example....

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Castrol-Pag-Oil-Air-con-pag-oil-PAG100_W0QQitemZ280019427886QQihZ018QQcategoryZ108798QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em118Q2el1247

The numbers indicate the oil viscosity, you would need to check what is needed in your system.


When I had a mechanic mate gas my system it took about 400 grams of the charge and no more, when the aircon was switched on the effect of the compressor running drew the remaining 160 grams into the system.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Thanks Technozen, this does help me a lot and clears somethings up for me.

I also paid a visit to my Kia dealer today and spoke to one of their technicians who said that it would be fine to connect everything up and then regas as the oil in the compressor is only thereto stop it starting dry and the oil added during the regas was what made up most of the total oil in the system.

So thanks ro everyone, i feel a lot more confident in the fitting of the compressor now.

I do however have one last question (I'm sorry). The technician was giving me some tips on fitting the pipes and said that i shoud smear a thin layer of grease on each connecting surface to stop water ingress and obviously moisture. He also said that i should use some of the PAG oil to coat each of the seals (o-rings), to make a better seal.

Now the question is, is there anything other than the PAG oil that i could use to coat the o-rings? I ask this because i have seen 250ml bottles of PAG (and i think this is the smallest i've found) for sale on ebay but i think they are way too big for this particular job and alot would be wasted. Plus would it have to be the correct viscosity as the rest of the system (of which i don't know)?

Thanks for your continued support. :)
 

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Mmmm....Rover..
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214 no 1 said:
I do however have one last question (I'm sorry). The technician was giving me some tips on fitting the pipes and said that i shoud smear a thin layer of grease on each connecting surface to stop water ingress and obviously moisture. He also said that i should use some of the PAG oil to coat each of the seals (o-rings), to make a better seal.

Now the question is, is there anything other than the PAG oil that i could use to coat the o-rings? I ask this because i have seen 250ml bottles of PAG (and i think this is the smallest i've found) for sale on ebay but i think they are way too big for this particular job and alot would be wasted. Plus would it have to be the correct viscosity as the rest of the system (of which i don't know)?
I can't see how grease will help and I have never seen it recommended. The o-rings certainly should be coated with PAG oil.

PAG oil is very close in it's make up to brake fluid but I would only use PAG for this application.

I wasted about 370ml as I bought a 500ml bottle but the cost was offset by the fact that I knew the correct stuff was used when I installed the A/C.

For your information the Sedona takes 1150g of R134a refrigerant and 200cc of PAG46 oil.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I can't see how grease will help and I have never seen it recommended.
So would you not recommend i do this then?

For your information the Sedona takes 1150g of R134a refrigerant and 200cc of PAG46 oil.
Now where the hell did you find this out from, i've looked everywhere.

I will definitely buy some then. Would the compressor come with the full 200cc of oil in it or only the amount needed for the compressor?

Thanks.
 

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Mmmm....Rover..
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Anything I have read suggests that the connections should be extremely clean, clean dirty connections with alcohol and simply lubricate the o-rings with PAG, do not lubricate threads with PAG.

I'm sorry, I misread the MG-R documentation. A new compressor is NOT supplied with PAG, it's pressurised with Nitrogen to keep moisture out.

In your case I would simply fit the new parts, use new o-rings if possible and ensure they are lubricated.

The compressor would probably be supplied dry, but as there is no chance of the system operating without gas, there is no worry of damaging the compressor.

Then have the system professionally pressure tested, vacuumed and re-filled.


It might be worth trying Cheltenham Radiators for your aircon parts, I dealt with a guy there called Jason http://www.cheltenhamradiators.co.uk/ and they were very helpful. They sourced my new reciever/drier for less than 50% of the MG-R cost.

Has your system been open to the atmosphere for any length of time? It might be necessary to replace the reciever/drier as it contains a dessicant and this will absorb moisture if allowed in.

I have a pdf chart that gives all of the vehicle refrigerant/oil data!
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
I had a new receiver/drier fitted last week (£150 item from Kia) before i realised that nearly every pipe, compressor and condenser was leaking, so i am changing the whole system except the 2 evaporators (front and back). This is going to be at great cost but i have only been able to find Kia to supply the main parts. I got a condenser delivered yesterday but can't find anyone that does the compressors.

I had been told yesterday by a Kia technician that it should be fine to just put everything together and then get it regassed as the oil is put in at the same time, is this correct?

I think i shall leave greasing the joints then. As for the o-rings, you can't buy then separately, they only come with new pipes and is why i have to replace the lot.

The compressor would probably be supplied dry, but as there is no chance of the system operating without gas, there is no worry of damaging the compressor.
This is basically what Kia said but that it would have some oil in it from manufacture. However, this is why a lot of sites i have looked at, reccommend adding the PAG oil to the compressor because it could cause damage to the compressor in the first few minutes of operating. This is why it's so confusing.

This is what was e-mailed to me by a company called 'COOLCAR' who specialise also in airconditioning (who i also got the condensor from)

All compressors we supply come with oil, however, if supplied elsewhere you
need to check. Easy to do, basically open and covers to the inlet and outlet
points on the compressor (where you attach the pipes) and turn with your
hand the very end of the clutch plate, not the pulley itself but the end of
the compressor. IT should turn with your hand, though maybe stiff. If oil
comes out of one of the holes then it's full, if not, then add oil into one
of the holes and keep turning till it comes out the other. A universal
compressor oil should be ok, and you maybe able to get some from somewhere
like 'car spares' or similar.

It is important to ensure you get oil into the compressor as without it can
seize, debris from which circulates around the system blocking the expansion
valve and damaging the drier. This is why we say check the oil and if the
previous compressor had seized you need to flush the system to remove any
debris and also change the expansion valve. Otherwise debris from the seized
compressor again gets back into the new one and seizes that one too, thereby
invalidating the warranty.

Hope that helps
If you still think it would be ok to do as you say then that's what i'll do as you obviously know what you are talking about. I will get some PAG oil to lubricate the new o-rings anyway, but if it's also best to add some to the compressor then i shall do this also. I want to get this right.

Thanks for your continuing help, it is much appreciated.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
It might be worth trying Cheltenham Radiators for your aircon parts, I dealt with a guy there called Jason http://www.cheltenhamradiators.co.uk/ and they were very helpful. They sourced my new reciever/drier for less than 50% of the MG-R cost.
Been trying them all day and no-one answers the phone. Maybe they don't work on Saturdays? Also tried emailing them and i got a message back saying that the message had failed to send so not sure what else i can try?

Technozen, i know i keep asking but, if the compressor does come dry then should i add 200ml of PAG46 oil to it? I am going to buy some from the link you supplied above for the o-rings anyway so i would have enough to add to the compressor also.

What is the best way to add it to the compressor (or the way you did it), either to pour some into the low pressure side of the pump or into a pipe somewhere.

I know it sounds cheap but you have been great so far and i really appreciate it. If only i could do something for you to return the favour, but you know how to do everything anyway. ;)
 

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Mmmm....Rover..
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Might be worth ringing them next week, this is the email address I have for them...

[email protected]

You could add oil if you feel better doing so, but it might be removed when the system is regassed (this would depend on the equipment used).

Most compressors have a "sump plug" which can be used to fill/empty, failing that the low pressure port will do fine.


Ask all the questions you need, I'm glad to help.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Yeah, that's the email address i used and it came back as not able to be sent.

This is what the email i got back said

This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification

Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently:

[email protected]

Technical details of permanent failure:
PERM_FAILURE: Message rejected. See http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=69585 for more information.
I shall ring them on Monday to see if they can do a compressor cheaper, you never know.

Thanks Technozen, i didn't want you to start thinking i was a nuisance, i want to get it right and as i've never dont it before i obviously need help. If i had to do it again afterwards i think i would be ok, but it's always the first time doing something new that i want to get all of the information available so i get it right first time.

Thanks again, i'm sure i will have more questions soon. :)
 
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